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Prot DPS/PVP - Protribution Guide - Updated 3.3!
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Post by
397890
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Post by
65116
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Post by
Squishalot
Note - this below passage refers to PvE. PvP is a different kettle of fish, and comparing Ret vs Prot is much harder.
Nobody is saying that it'll surpass Ret at equal gear levels, in terms of single target DPS, until gear levels get to a high enough level. We don't know where that level is. We're hypothesising that it might be at the Ulduar 25 / Trial of the Crusader level.
Reasons:
a) Prot has 10% extra weapon damage, compared to 6% for Ret. Therefore, if stats give you +100 melee dps, then Prot will get +110dps, and Ret will get +106dps.
b) Prot applies that 10% extra weapon damage to all attacks, including Exorcism and Consecration, and 100% of Judgement damage. Ret only applies it to attacks based on main weapon damage (which is a much smaller part of SoV Judgements and no part of SoR Judgements, which EJ is defining as the #1 PvP seal at the moment for Ret pallies).
c) Despite Dobbel's assertion otherwise, if you look two pages back, you'll find a fairly detailed assessment of Divine Storm/Crusader Strike vs Shield of Righteousness/Hammer of the Righteous. The two Prot skills scale a lot better with Strength than the two Ret skills.
d) Seal damage nowadays (with the loss of SoB) is further down the pecking order. The 'bonus' seal damage that Ret gets is only for the seal procs whenever CS and DS hit, being 3 times every 10 seconds or so - 'Melee' seal procs scale equally with Strength, due to weapon swing speed.
e) Prot scales with Stamina. +10 Stam = +3 Spell Power. Though minor, this means that Prot gains benefit from the increased stamina (wasted item points for Ret pallies from a DPS perspective), and gains DPS benefit from raid buffs such as Power Word: Fortitude. Plus, they also have +Stamina talents that improve the bonus by even more.
What does this mean?
I'll assume you've got an understanding of some high school geometry. Draw a line: y = 2x. x is the number of item points you have to spend. y is the amount of DPS you do. This represents the Ret scale.
Draw another line: y = 2.2x - 500. This represents the Prot dps scale.
For a lot of the time, the Prot scale is going to be lower than the Ret scale, for 'lower' item levels. As item levels go up, you get more stats, the better scaling means that Prot 'catches up'. Eventually, Prot will overtake, at some high gear level. We're supposing that we might have hit that point now. All we know for 'certain' is that things like raid buffs help Prot DPS to catch up to Ret DPS, making it very difficult to 'prove' anything outside of actually raiding with it.
Post by
svirve
Just passing by and wanted to add that
this
, the original thread is full of WWS reports, various numbers and some math.
Post by
287871
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Post by
436820
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Post by
Squishalot
SoV is independent of weapon speed directly, but is dependent indirectly, due to the weapon damage from AP being scaled by weapon speed. So a slower weapon does the same amount as a fast one for melee procs only, but SoV also procs on HotR/DS/CS, so a slower weapon will result in more damage.
And dang it, I can't see anything on Photobucket while I'm at work =__=;;
Post by
Synectics
Ok so here's a little piece of proof to sway the non-believers.
(I was even higher on the trash up to and around Patch)
Wow. Looking at your screenshots, I'd be /slapping the nubs blowing you crap.
"OMG 2H IS MOAR DAMAGE"
Clearly, they don't understand the game mechanics. Send them here, let them mull it over (if their brains can handle all the ZOMGMATH that Squishy and svirve have been so kind to take care of for the rest of us).
Post by
436820
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Post by
Squishalot
So a slower weapon does the same amount as a fast one for melee procs only, but SoV also procs on HotR/DS/CS, so a slower weapon will result in more damage.
I agree on DS and CS, but HotR is 4x weapon DPS, not weapon damage, last I checked.
I was referring to the extra damage from the SoV proc which hits when HotR hits. HotR does 4xDPS (no change) + 33% MW (SoV proc), every 6 seconds.
Post by
65116
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Post by
svirve
Btw, 3k dps on patch? Lol, I do that much dps while tanking him, sorry.
It's great to see that you have an understanding for the fact that not everyone in the game has the same gear.
On top of that are you still here? Havn't you yet succeeded in your quest to save all man kind from wasting time on this gimp noob spec that sucks because you say so?
So far you've got nothing constructive to add expect "omgomgomg noob noob noob noob gimp gimp you suck!".
You consistently tell us to show you facts as to why it's better and we've actually provided you with screenshots and WWS reports and all you do is say "zomg i do more than that when tanking in full uld25 gear". Wait what now? Are you ret specced when tanking or did you just say you can pull more damage with a prot spec.
Seriously this has gone from you being cool and flexing your big ego making an ass out of yourself, to being just plain pathetic.
Post by
Squishalot
No, svirve, in seriousness, Dobbel makes some decent points, but he just doesn't back it up by actually knowing what he's talking about in this instance, since he hasn't actually read enough about Protribution, he's just mouthing off at the moment.
1) I never said that the 6% applies only to Melee damage.
2) Sanctity of Battle / Fanaticism / Art of War are all factored in already.
3) The 2nd and 3rd Ret pallies don't get the additional benefit of Swift Retribution and Sanctified Retribution.
4) Sheath of Light is already applied into the calculations.
5) Righteous Vengeance doesn't do jack all, seeing how how little DPS it does.
6) If you bothered to look (which you obviously didn't), you'd see that Crusade is included, along with 2/3 Sanctity of Battle.
7) Good on you for doing 1st year maths. I actually finished my actuarial degree. Happy comparing sizes yet? Good. If you did as svirve suggested and headed back to the original post for the maths, you'd see where we're coming from and why we believe in the scaling (3.13 at least, it might not work so well with 3.2 out now). The graph was only meant to be a simplified (very, VERY simplified) example of why scaling means that at some point, an inferior spec can overtake a currently superior spec.
We've always said that 3.2 has the potential to ruin this spec for PvE, on account of the nerf to Shield of Righteousness and that everyone is forced to use Seal of Vengeance. If you'd like to help ruin it, please feel free to ply your 1st year maths skills to the task. Otherwise, again, if you've got nothing useful to contribute, then again, just leave it alone. As svirve said, you're starting to look very childish in your approach to this. Everywhere else on this site, you seem to be able to deal with things maturely. Why not apply the same approach here?
Post by
65116
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Post by
svirve
I start crying? You've been crying about how bad we are since you first posted here.
You've done nothing at all so far to try and conduct a serious and civilized discussion, either you're just so "ghetto" that you dont know how to or you're not even trying to do anything but be a prick.
So far you've done everything in your power to claim you're not here to flex your ego and still you do nothing to try and be civilized, so yes i do believe you do this to flex your ego. Especially when you're the only one that disagrees with this that actually just cant let it go.
Well you do know it's a discussion forum, that's quite surprising seeing your behaviour to be honest.
If this is your best attempt at trying to prove to us that we're fail, damn you're bad.
If you cant accept the fact that we over and over have said that prot scales better, but we're not sure how much is required for us to pass ret, i'm just going to ignore your further posts since then you're obviously not here to have a discussion. To get back to the graphs you and squishy were using before, it might as well be
ret y= 3x+5000
prot y= 3,1x
Which pretty much means it'd be an infinity before prot does more damage, but it does scale better than ret. Which is what we've been saying all along. And we're not basing this on pulling numbers out of our asses like you so nicely put it but by using the spreadsheet we made for 3.1.x that clearly showed that the DPS gain for prot was bigger than the gain for ret when adding an equal amount of item points to different stats.
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287871
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65116
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90790
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