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The 18/53 raid healing build and its playstyle.

Post by Paolo

I get the fact that shielding someone prevents disco from doing it and that holy shields are weaker. Typically tho, any disc preist is busy healing the tank, etc with the other comments.

When I am tank healing (disc priest), I am bubblespamming the raid to assist raid healers. There are almost always plenty of free GCDs to work with, and it keeps up BT (haste), WS (crit), and Rapture (regen). And of course, when I get my 4 pieces, it will keep up the +250SP tier bonus as well. So I treat all raid members as mine to bubble. Even with Improved PWS, a holy priest pre-empting my WS debuff on anyone will be making a grave mistake. I mean "mistake" from a raid-centric perspective...we have to weave our abilities together to make a unified whole, and not be working at cross purposes. Taking away the core ability of one of your healers is not team play.

I run with two holy priests who know not to shield except in emergencies. I do worry about what will happen when we all have the 4-piece bonus. If they can't restrain themselves, we will have a serious problem. If one of them spec'd for Body & Soul, we'd find a way to navigate the WS debuffs, but they would still have to be careful about overusing their shields.

Post by ignayshus

Pre-empting your WS debuff a grave mistake? Is your 4% crit gonna save the day?

I know you don't keep shields up on everyone in the raid while MT healing.

If you have played with a Holy Priest that actually uses shields (like myself) you'd know that I shield when a target NEEDS the hps. In that scenario, disco or holy shield doesn't matter, they heal for almost the same (and mine may heal for more, though this requires a simple test that I intend to do).

If someone NEEDS healing there's also already other heals in queue for them from the other healers, so you're not going to be using the 4% crit bonus on them.

When I play with our disco priest, I never bubble the MT unless the disco priest is dead. That's all the coordination needed.

I mean if we wanted to go to the extreme I could also avoid bubbling people that had less than 10% mana/rage/energy, but that's pretty silly.

Post by Paolo

Pre-empting your WS debuff a grave mistake? Is your 4% crit gonna save the day? L2read. I named other reasons the WS debuff should (mainly) belong to disc. And why do you respond with such an attitude? Wow.

Edit: Just to make the obvious even more obvious: Other than Replenishment, Rapture is my biggest source of mana regen. If you preempt my ability to bubble, you remove one of my key mana management tools. Was your bubble really so important that you'd intentionally run me out of mana? Aren't we supposed to be on the same side? Mana burn the bad guys, not the good guys.

I know you don't keep shields up on everyone in the raid while MT healing.Of course not. But I reserve the right to--except (as I said) in emergencies. And why do you respond with such an attitude?

When I play with our disco priest, I never bubble the MT unless the disco priest is dead. That's all the coordination needed.You and I would not stay guilded for long, one way or the other.

But I think this is not really a discussion at all, do you? You have a foregone conclusion that you're proving by yelling, and a playstyle that is not team-oriented. Play however you want to play, I'm all for that. There are all kinds of people in this game. I just don't spend my time with all of them.

Post by ignayshus

Hyperbole is hyperbole. My shielding a target you want to shield being "a grave mistake" is over the top.

You don't reserve the "right" to heal anyone but your assignment. Your assignment as the MT healer is the MT, not the raid. You can help out on the raid if you have time, just as raid healers help MT healers out of holes when necessary. Hence the only target I don't shield when our disco is present is the MT.

If it's an emergency, there's no time to wait and see if you will exercise your "right" to shield someone. People die between gcds. So when it's an emergency, my shield which is at worst 9% smaller and at best 2% bigger than yours is welcome.

What you seem to misunderstand is that this is a team oriented spec. Shields and Renews don't improve my performance on the meters, but they keep people alive long enough for all the smart heals to do their work by flattening out the spikes. This means the healers don't have to lean on more expensive heals thereby improving the longevity of the entire healing squad. But what do I know about teamwork, I've only healed every aspect of this game since launch.

Post by ignayshus

Edit: Just to make the obvious even more obvious: Other than Replenishment, Rapture is my biggest source of mana regen. If you preempt my ability to bubble, you remove one of my key mana management tools. Was your bubble really so important that you'd intentionally run me out of mana? Aren't we supposed to be on the same side? Mana burn the bad guys, not the good guys.
You get that effect every 12 seconds at most, which you'll be burning every time WS drops off at the tank, not the raid. If you do not shield your tank every time the WS drops off, then I really don't know what to say to you.

The only other Rapture return you can get is a bug, whereby you can shield a whole bunch of targets that are going to take a massive amount of damage at the same time and gain back an unintended amount of mana as it circumvents the 12sec lockout.

That requires pre-shielding in advance of massive raid wide damage, which I don't do, so I wouldn't be precluding any of your exploited returns should you choose to employ the bug. Though I wouldn't play with someone that exploits anyway, so that point is moot.

TLDR version:
1. Preventing you from normal Rapture - Doesn't happen because I don't shield the MT.
2. Preventing you from bugged Rapture - Doesn't happen because I don't pre-shield.

Any other concerns I can address for you?

Post by Sinespe

Post by OscarDivine

Empowered renew is the reason that we shouldn't be shielding, really. and what's this nonsense about Bubbling increasing your HPS? I really don't understand your logic or even why it matters in the slightest.

IMO Bubble is a waste of mana, a GCD, and I think you're alone when you say that it DOESN'T detract from a Disco priest in their MT role. I know when I'm Disco healing, I throw bubbles on damage prone individual in my raid to keep my rapture going and to get that extra haste I need while my tank has his WS debuff.

I agree with Paolo, your playstyle is quite selfish and not at all team-oriented. You're not the hero. You're part of a team of heroes.

Post by 174266

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by ignayshus

Your own point is moot. Even if that bug didn't exist, if I knew a bunch of damage was incoming I'd still want to pre-shield as many people as I could. That's Discipline's job, after all.

Let me help you out there.

That requires pre-shielding in advance of massive raid wide damage, WHICH I DON'T DO, so I wouldn't be precluding any of your exploited returns should you choose to employ the bug. Though I wouldn't play with someone that exploits anyway, so that point is moot.

TLDR version:
1. Preventing you from normal Rapture - Doesn't happen because I don't shield the MT.
2. Preventing you from bugged Rapture - Doesn't happen because I DON'T PRE-SHIELD.

You are not being precluded from pre-shielding as much as (or even more than) you do currently. I hope that is clear now.

Post by Paolo

As for shields, every time I shield I gain a 250 spell power buff...Sorry, I should have read more closely. Now I understand this thread. Should have been obvious.

Post by Sinespe

Post by ignayshus

and what's this nonsense about Bubbling increasing your HPS? I really don't understand your logic or even why it matters in the slightest.

Very simple really. My shield is a 1.5-2.25k instant heal with a 6.5k shield on top all wrapped up in an instant cast. Should the target need that shield (because it got hit again) the shield is most hps that can be done to the target.

In addition, and not really an hps argument, so much as it's an hpm argument, if the target didn't get hit again and so didn't need the shield then nothing was lost as the shield stays on there for 30 seconds anyway.

IMO Bubble is a waste of mana, a GCD, and I think you're alone when you say that it DOESN'T detract from a Disco priest in their MT role. I know when I'm Disco healing, I throw bubbles on damage prone individual in my raid to keep my rapture going and to get that extra haste I need while my tank has his WS debuff.
I have no issues stepping outside the bounds of current conventions. However regarding stepping on disco's toes: Since I don't pre-shield, which is what you're talking about I don't in anyway shape or form preclude you from this practice.

I also raid regularly with a disco priest and we work well together. How often have you played with a Holy priest that shields? Are you speaking from experience or not?

I agree with Paolo, your playstyle is quite selfish and not at all team-oriented. You're not the hero. You're part of a team of heroes.If you really think a playstyle that focus's on abilities that don't show up well on the meters and the premise behind which is to lighten the mana constraints of the other healers by allowing them to leverage their most efficient heals is selfish then I really have to wonder what your definition of team work is.

Post by ignayshus

As for shields, every time I shield I gain a 250 spell power buff...Sorry, I should have read more closely. Now I understand this thread. Should have been obvious. Can you be anymore small-minded?

I'll answer all of your questions, and if you make a point I can't address, I'll consider how that changes the playstyle; but if you're just going to troll, please move along.

Post by Paolo

Post by ignayshus

You are not being precluded from pre-shielding as much as (or even more than) you do currently. I hope that is clear now.

No, but we are being admonished for doing something as if the only reason for doing it is a bug.

Actually no, you're not. And the only mud-slinging and name calling is coming specifically out of the other camp.

I don't pre-shield, which does not preclude disco priests from doing so, which was the concern he posed (though he wrapped it all up in the guise that I'm being selfish).

I directly showed that my playstyle does not impede discipline's ability to shield the tank (his assignment) whenever he chooses to, NOR does my playstyle impede in anyway his ability to pre-shield as many targets as he can in between fulfilling his MT healing assignment.

I don't pre-shield because I lack rapture and soul warding so it's not effective as a preemptive spell for me. Point in fact I appreciate discos preshielding whenever they can spare a moment because it helps further flatten raid damage.

My disco priest and I work together toward the same end.

Post by ignayshus

I really have to wonder what your definition of team work is.

Your behavior in this thread (more than your build or your playstyle) has made clear your thoughts on teamwork. You stand in stark contrast to almost everyone else on this forum, at least with regards to the function and purpose of community. Which is, fundamentally, the same as teamwork.

My playstyle does not impede any other playstyle and in fact enhances other's performance at the expense of my own showing on the meters. The opposite of selfish.

I don't claim a "right" to anything. The opposite of selfish.

So spare me the finger wagging, I'm not the one engaged in name calling and ad-hominem.

Post by OscarDivine

Post by ignayshus

That requires pre-shielding in advance of massive raid wide damage, which I don't do, so I wouldn't be precluding any of your exploited returns should you choose to employ the bug. Though I wouldn't play with someone that exploits anyway, so that point is moot.

Your own point is moot. Even if that bug didn't exist, if I knew a bunch of damage was incoming I'd still want to pre-shield as many people as I could. That's Discipline's job, after all.

Let me be painfully clear.

The mana returns from such a thing is a known bug.

That being said I would hope that if you know raid wide damage is coming that you would drop shields whenever you can, because it's helpful. It's not your fault if you, in the course of doing what's best for the raid, benefit unintentionally from the bug.

If people coordinate the exploitation of the rapture bug (ie. keeping groups tight on xt so that the disco priest can keep shielding a bunch of people in anticipation of mana returns on light bombs would be an exploit of the bug.) then they are the kind of people with whom I would not play.

Post by ignayshus

In the case that we're discussing this with a T8 Bonus, then we have to still consider that now you're respecing your toon out of things that you COULD have as a raid healing priest and weight the costs and benefits.

The Body and Soul talent was specifically designed with the T8 set bonus in mind to encourage priests to use their PWS. This still doesn't mean that you should be specing into better bubbles. I just don't find 3/3 Imp PWS a good use of talent points Set bonus or not. As a holy priest, I would invest into BnS before I go for Imp PWS.

I was a big fan of BnS very early on, and I do miss it. There are some places where it's particularly useful, however when I shield people it's because they need it, so I want as big a shield as possible.

The bonus though really doesn't have anything to do with BnS. I mean as a regular user of the talent, it was best on things like gravity bomb, nature's fury, eyebeams, light bomb, lightning tendrils, mark of the faceless, etc.

But I was still rarely casting shields, because the speed boost was really only helpful once or twice in most fights. In fact it's greatest use imho was in order to quickly get to a player that was out of range for a heal.

So yeah, I'd love to have it back (same with my GS glyph) but it just doesn't offer me the same mileage that I get out of making shield a viable heal for holy. The only way I could get it really is to cut points from Spiritual Guidance and/or Inner Focus and it really just doesn't seem worth it.

Post by OscarDivine

Buddy boy, talking to you is like talking to a brick wall... But I'm going to put my other response in here anyway... Gimme a little while I'm at work being productive for a change.

The 18/53 raid healing build and its playstyle.

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