This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
Armor pen Vs. agi
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
135141
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Slimda
At 210 ArP with shred idol, ArP is better than Agility.
At 350 ArP with Rip Idol, ArP is better than Agility.
Post by
135141
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Slimda
Yep, it's been calculated, tested and wrung out for us "newbies" to utilize.
ArP is the way to go.
Post by
curlymon
And while starting Kittehs won't be hitting that tipping point where one is better then the other... It's better to start down the ArPen path early so you don't have to worry about swapping over later.
Post by
pelf
i am guessing someone already did the math... but does that take into account of all the raid buffs that you get? IE kings, ArP does not get a boost from that but agi does.
it takes into account pretty much everything. Some guys over on EJ did the calculations, basically showing that ArPen is now our Top stat. For the time being at least its also unlimited (ie isnt capped at 100%) so the more of it you have the further it increases your dps and on an increasing scale.
It is capped now. It changes the BiS gear and the way we gem. Fortunately for us, the new "cap" is basically whatever takes your passive ArP + procced ArP to 104%. That number is quite high. It's something like 550 rating before you start gemming for Agility again.
See this thread for all the dirty details:
http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t49702-feralbynight_cat_bear_simulation_tool/
Post by
Aadramelekh
Screw ArP. It's already so much on Ulduar gear that I don't even bother to consider it. And guess what. I have ~250 ArP. One other feral in my guild is fully gemmed with ArP and has nearly 400. My DPS was
very slightly HIGHER
than his in most encounters we did together. And he does have skill. Our DPS was always one near the other on the meter, with mine a little over his. And I am all out agility based.
Even with those calculations, the higher crit and AP I get with agility buffs everything I do (both instant attacks and bleeds). ArP only buffs that 55-60% of damage represented by instant attacks (Melee, Mangle, Shred, Ferocious Bite). Also it is 25%
LESS
efficient when the boss has Sunder Armor and faerie fire on it.
Personally, I don't believe in ArP. It is good - I strive to get as many ArP pieces of gear possbile (while maintaining my desired set bonuses and stuff) but I also aim for a high number of sockets to fill up with agility alone. When we consider a number of 21 sockets (with the gear that has most sockets, excepting BS specific sockets), I'd rather have them filled up with 336 Agility (which becomes 396 with talents & Blessing of Kings) than have 336 ArP in there (~27% ArP or so).
Post by
pelf
Also it is 25%
LESS
efficient when the boss has Sunder Armor and faerie fire on it.
That is false. Both Sunder Armor and Faerie Fire reduce the amount of armor the boss has, directly, and then Armor Penetration works off of that value
as 100%
. Your points of Armor Penetration are as effective, numbers-wise, with SA/FF(F) as they are without.
Personally, I don't believe in ArP. It is good - I strive to get as many ArP pieces of gear possbile (while maintaining my desired set bonuses and stuff) but I also aim for a high number of sockets to fill up with agility alone. When we consider a number of 21 sockets (with the gear that has most sockets, excepting BS specific sockets), I'd rather have them filled up with 336 Agility (which becomes 396 with talents & Blessing of Kings) than have 336 ArP in there (~27% ArP or so).
For anyone reading his post, remember that he's making a qualitative judgment based on experience data rather than numerical analysis. Some people prefer the effect Agility has on their damage and some prefer the affect ArP has. They each produce slightly different "feeling" damage output, but are ultimately very similar in effect in the mathematical space. The biggest difference is that with higher crit numbers, your damage output is more subject to RNG, whereas with higher ArP values, your damage output is simply increased across the board by the decrease in boss armor.
Post by
Lightrain
Hmmm....
Just IMO..
Agility buffs damage across the board and gives more crit value while being in line with talents, spec, and buffs increasing your benefits.
ArP buffs direct damage while ignoring Rip and Rake and reducing the benefit of PI and agil increasing talents.
Agil adds RNG into the pot, sure, but I think the bonus of more CP's from extra crit gives you a steadier output with an advantage in the RNG department, while ArP leaves you lower on the crit scale, leaving you with less CP's overall and RNG won't benefit you as often.
This is why I stack agil in my dps set. It is very hard to weigh the effect of more CP's on a feral druid's DPS, and is why the "mangle vs. shred" arguement didn't just die out quickly.
Since both are using the same attacks with different modifiers, IMO, agility is better because RNG will be on your side more often when squeezing extra finishers into the pot. Similar to having poorly timed Rip and SR drops not affecting you as much because you can get a bit of RNG help and pump your finishers back out quicker, rather easily increasing your dps.
Post by
22001
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aadramelekh
That is false. Both Sunder Armor and Faerie Fire reduce the amount of armor the boss has, directly, and then Armor Penetration works off of that value as 100%.Hmmm. I don't remember reading this on any forum where the ArP topic was in debate. Every single time the results were that the ArP percentage provided by the player's gear applied to the armor value which was left AFTER Sunder Armor and Faerie Fire.
That is, for a boss with 10600 armor, a 30% ArP value from gear would leave it with 7420 (3180 effective armor reduced). But if that same boss already has SA and FF, it has 7950 armor from which the next 30% from the player's gear is deducted - meaning the boss now has 5565 armor (2385 effective armor reduced). 5565 armor = 52.5% of initial armor value. If ArP would stack linearly (25% from debuffs + 30% from gear = 55% ArP), the boss should have 45% armor left, or 4770, but this is not the case.
At least this is what I read on every ArP related topic so far. Can you please provide proof that ArP stacks with ArP debuffs and their total value is applied to the boss' armor?
The biggest difference is that with higher crit numbers, your damage output is more subject to RNG, whereas with higher ArP values, your damage output is simply increased across the board by the decrease in boss armor.The RNG related part about Agility is correct. Crit = RNG (which works nicely in favor of squeezing more FBs in the DPS cycle). The AP it provides = guaranteed increase for ALL types of attacks (CP generators or finishers). But the ArP part is false. ArP only boosts the instant attacks; and when we consider the fact that almost 40% of feral damage means bleed, it is not influencing damage 'across the board' as you say, only 60% of it.
In the end, the difference isn't great, but as I said, practical experience proved my agility stacking to pull slightly ahead of ArP stacking. And one other thing I did not mention is that the other druid is wearing already 4xT8, while I am only wearing 2xT7 + 2xT8. So he has the advantage of 8 seconds longer Savage Roar and higher stats from items already, thus theoretically being able to squeeze more FBs than me into the DPS cycle. But I still did a little more damage on many occasions. RNG really did help.
And one more thing:
For anyone reading his post, remember that he's making a qualitative judgment based on experience data rather than numerical analysis.Let me tell you an old Romanian (my home country) saying which goes like '
The math you do in theory almost never perfectly matches the math you see in practice.
' Do you still think that empirical data gathered from dozens of encounters which statistically showed my agility based gear to produce slightly better damage output in almost 70-75% of the situations isn't worth considering? You are only basing your decisions on numerical data provided by models which practically can only be applied to 'Patchwerk / XT-002 type' fights? I don't. ArP does nothing on fights where a lot of movement is required and DPS up time is not 100%. Meanwhile Rip and Rake keep on ticking. And having 400 extra Agility (from those 21 sockets I mentioned, buffed with Kings) will boost them nicely, while 340 ArP does nothing.
It is all about choice. Both are good DPS stats. But for my sockets I prefer Agility. My personal experience from dozens of different boss fights directly compared to another feral who stacks ArP makes me value Agility at least as much as ArP.
Post by
Valer
Im not a druid but ArP doesnt increase bleed damage? And allot of ferals damage comes from bleeds.
Post by
Aadramelekh
This is correct. About 40% of feral damage comes from Rip and Rake. Bleed ignores armor completely so ArP doesn't have any effect on these. Which is why I prefer agility for sockets instead of ArP, because agility improves all abilities across the board (through crit and AP), while ArP only improves about 60% of total damage (instant attacks).
Post by
129046
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
144872
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
310761
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Kutkh
And you know why only 25% of your dmg comes from bleeds? Because you gimped AP and crit with all that ArP gemming/stacking. That should've been valid proof that ArP > Agi? Lulz.
Bottomline, we are starting to split in two feral DPS schools:
a) school of theorycrafters (shred)
b) old school (rip)
@ foleynuts
I just love to yell at people who dont move out of AoE when I'm raid leader. Try to "shred shred" while having gravity bomb, while you are in slag pot, when there is 20 yard green stain on the ground. Want me to continue? Unless you were shredding Mickey Mouse while he was looking at Mini I'm missing your point here.
Post by
Kutkh
Btw just so we avoid pointless argument, I mentioned slag pot in a sense of one not being able to shred while in there.
Post by
Aadramelekh
Oh well then I guess I am just an 'old school' druid. In the end it is all about a difference of 200 - be it Agility or ArP. As I said, I also look for gear with ArP on it, but my sockets are all dedicated to Agility.
THIS
screenshot shows almost a 47% value for total bleed damage, with Rip weighing a staggering 33.5% of total damage done. Of course an ArP based gear with the Shred idol would balance things in favor of Shred and Melee Swings instead of Rip and Rake.
Both these stats produce good results in a raid environment. In the end it's all about preference.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.