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An article on Varian Wrynn being right
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Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Supremacy
Bottom line is this.
The Horde have proven time and again that as a whole they cannot be trusted.
They can certainly be more trusted than the Burning Legion, Yogg-Saron or the Scourge.
I'm not inclined to agree with that.
At least with the Old Gods, the demons, and the Scourge, you know where you stand with them.
They want to destroy everything.
With the way the Horde has been acting since showing up in Northrend, you have no idea what they're going to do. A regiment of orcs might show up in the Alliance's darkest hour, and save them from death at the hands of the Scourge.
Or, that same regiment might just burn down every Alliance city they can.
Just by what's going on in Northrend, though, I'd expect the Horde to show up with torches instead of support.
I find it particularly grating by Blizzard that they keep on trying to make the Horde look like bad guys just because they want to shove Varian down the Alliance's throats.
It would be nice to see some kind of balance. Right now, Blizzard is not trying to make the Horde look like the bad guys. They are making the Horde the bad guys. I don't know.
Maybe in 3.4 or something, you'll have the decimation of Thunder Bluff, or something. The Tauren, I think we can all agree, are probably the least belligerent of all the factions.
Post by
Supremacy
The Alliance and the Horde need eachother to survive in Northrend. Even if the Horde is constantly picking fights,
fighting the other instead of the threat is not going to help anyone. If the Alliance turns to fight the Horde, it loses, plain and simple. If the Horde wins. The Alliance loses. If the Alliance wins against the Horde, the Scourge wins against the Alliance, and the Alliance still loses. I don't like what the Horde is doing in Northrend, but we can't afford to stop our war with the Scourge and fight about it, and we also can't afford to split our forces between the two wars.
We need to work together and trust each other to stop the world from being destroyed.
Don't mind me, I'm just going to arbitrarily shoot you.
Think of it this way. You are fighting a big strong guy who has a weapon. Another person is also fighting a similar brute behind you. He starts throwing punches at you while he tries to fight his own guy. It is going to be very difficult to fight off this big threat while the other guy punches you, but if you turn around and fight the guy who keeps punching you, you're going to die when the bigger guy stabs you in your now vulnerable back.
This is...well, for one, oversimplified. It's also inaccurate.
For one, it's not just "another person" fighting a similar guy behind you. It's someone who you agreed to work with, to stop those big guys from killing you both. That's much different than just some stranger.
Also, to break something down. There are four people. Two of them are my known enemies. I am fighting them. One person was fighting them with me, but then, he decided to start fighting me.
I am now fighting three enemies.
This was not my choice. This is just where things stand.
I don't care if that other guy somehow manages to completely take out one of the other guys I was fighting.
He's still fighting me. It's not me vs original guy vs former friend. Not from my perspective.
It's me vs two enemies.
Post by
306612
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Post by
109094
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Post by
229054
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Post by
344679
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Post by
Skreeran
LOL thats exactly what i was thinking! you beat me to it >.< Great point!
Aite, anyways, the horde/alliance weren't really at fullscale war when the broken front occured, please do not defend that. any orc SHOULD find such behavior reprehensible, unless orcs aren't as honorable as they seem.
Like, varian IN THE HEAT OF BATTLE he gets angry with thrall, and attacks him, but Jaina stopped him; an the alliance hadn't done much after then to cause aggression. Like, malfurion and tyrande and magni and stuff they didnt declare war did they? i would understand if the horde got defensive and didnt trust them but thats no excuse for the broken front. Thrall knows more then anyone that Jaina wants peace, so if the orcs are waiting for him to say "ah screw you guys!" in the heat of battle, and then be all like "allright, we got a justification for war boys! now we can go down in the history books as not being the people who started it!", then that tells me they really dont want peace either.Sure, those particular Orcs probably did not want peace. But they were indeed at war. Varian made sure that everyone knew that. When the Leader of the Alliance attacks the leader of the Horde and says that he's now at war, it's reasonable to assume that war has begun.
and look at all the other fights the alliance and horde have had. theres a whole entire side of the game (pvp) devoted to alliance vs. horde. From forsaken killing farmers to dwarves bungling around trying to find where they came from, the alliance and horde have always had their mix ups, and i really thought they kind of already were at war.Firstly, all of those localized fights aren't really war.
War is mobilizing troops and sieging towns and trying to destroy your enemy. You are talking about isolated fights between small groups.
Secondly, all those things happened in Vanilla. Ahn'qiraj served to unite them. Also, it had been a year since then during the Burning Crusade, where they didn't fight over anything except resources (the Bone Wastes, Halaa, the Eye of the Storm). Come Northrend, and they aren't fighting over anything but resources (just look at how well Bolvar and Saurfang Jr. worked together), until the Wrathgate, after which Varian declared war. Then the $%^& hits the fan and you have things like the Broken Front. To quote the Orgrimmar Champion up at the Tournament:
Orgrimmar Champion says: This isn't honorable combat. I long to face my opponents in battle with my axe in hand!
Orgrimmar Champion says: These are my enemies. YOU would be my enemy in battle! Your king has declared war on my kind!
But here they were, with a common foe... and the horde dishonorably strikes them in the back like the bunch of wussy cowards they are.... that is totally unacceptable. you say that "Hey, varian is pretty mean, like, he's going to kill innocent ogrimmarians running around in the streets..." but then i could say "ALL IS FAIR IN WAR! MUAHAHA IMA GO KILL SOME KIDZ IN OGRIMMAR!"
You would say that action is atrocious, correct? But all is fair in war isn't it? well thats frankly not true, because there is something called honor, its a concept orcs are supposed to understand.Name calling? That's not very sportsman-like. We had some Orcs who were just itching for the excuse to attack the Alliance, and Varian gave them one. But they didn't attack until the Alliance declared war on the Horde. And yes, I agree that it was dishonourable.
One more thing on the "is it smart for the alliance to go to war."
Let me qoute eminem from his song "backstabber".
"With backstabbers there was one thing i learned,
Their only powerful when you've got your back turned"
I love that line, and its so true. Also to, a quick tip from a prot pally: when fighting rogues its best to fight with them infront of you.The thing is. When the backstabber is not your biggest threat; When a bigger threat is directly in front of you, you cannot turn your soft stabbable back to the bigger threat. I would much rather have an unpredictable enemy of similar strength behind me than one of greater strength that is guarenteed to use whatever dirty tricks are needed to kill you. The Horde has occasionally attacked the Alliance. The Scourge attacks at every opportunity. But focusing on the Horde rather than the Scourge, you are just asking to be wiped off the map.
To quote Tirion Fordring:
Alas, we fight this battle divided. The Horde and Alliance are in the throes of war and will lend us no support. We must remain unyielding in our cause! For what choice have we to do otherwise?
IMO the alliance and horde were kinda already at war. i think varian thinks war is the only option, and he's probably right. and You say it would be nice if they could just sit down and talk about it like gentlemen. Yeah, that would be nice but garrosh would just come and try to cleave him. again.And again I ask: How in any way were they already at war? Bolvar certainly did not think they were at war. Saurfang the Younger certainly did not think they were at war. We were returning their deserters. We were not at war. And if Varian does not want to show up at a peace meet, fine. Send someone else in his stead. But war is certainly not the only option. It is the worst and most costly option available.
Post by
109094
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Post by
Skreeran
Firstly, all of those localized fights aren't really war.
War is mobilizing troops and sieging towns and trying to destroy your enemy. You are talking about isolated fights between small groups.
there is more than 1 way to fight a war. Up till now, and with the exception of the wraithgate massacre / undercity attack, it still remains small scale. Almost a Gureilla war
Best way ofc to fight a war is to make sure your opponent doesnt even know they are fighting. Horde v Alliance much?
Varian is just realising that the alliance is at war, and has been at war for some time.
Edit:
Also, Varian tried on acouple of occasions to meet with the horde to try and make peace. He got attacked each time, how is he to know the orc trying to kill him isnt horde?They were not at war. Those fights were small quibbles over land and resources. The Horde majority is not involved in the conflict. Like I said, they were for the most part at peace. Just look at Bolvar and Saurfang the Younger. They were working great.
And you completely ignored my second statement. Where is the conflict post Ah'qiraj, other than claims on small areas like the Eye of the Storm and Halaa?
Post by
109094
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Post by
Skreeran
I didnt ignore it I simply had nothing to add.
Every conflict that has invloved Horde and Alliance fighting a common foe, has also been marked by horde and alliance fighting each other. Correct? (name one where they didn't)
War is 95% fighting over land and resources. There is also a difference between skirmish style war (such as during the historical 100 Year War) and total war (such as the world wars).
So far the horde and alliance have been fighting a skirmish style war, with the worst part of it being that not everyone even realised what was happening. You can dress it up anyway you like, but it doesnt change the fact that it
is
a war.
Not including wraithgate & broken front I can think of 13 areas where horde and alliance are skirmishing.
13
. I dont know what you would call it, by if Im fighting someone in 13+ different locations I would call that a war.
Also just because Bolvar (and others, possibly even Saurfang jr/sr & Thrall) havent realised it yet, doesnt mean that its not a war. Varian has realised that it is a war, Garrosh knew before that.Even if they were at war, Skirmish Style war is much preferable to total war. The Alliance and Horde were
almost
at peace. At least they were at a truce in most areas. (Compare the number of settlements they have that are close to eachother that are not fighting versus the number that are, and it's clear that it was very close to peace).
Varian and Garrosh both want to bump it up to Total World War-style war. And that is what we are discussing. Whether you use the definitions previously given (peace versus war) or the more
exact
definition of small localized war versus full-scale war, the point remains the same.
What we had is preferable to what Varian and Garrosh want us to have. They both want to fight the other until the other is wiped off the planet.
And it is not a good thing.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
I cant think of any settlements really that are close together without some sort of patrol-skirmish going on. In fact, the closer together they are, the more prominant the fighting seems to be.
Also, i wold argue that 13+ skirmish locations means its not exaclty small scale.
I think the main difference between Varian and Garrosh in the 'total war' scenario is mainly that Garrosh wants it, but Varian feels like he has no other choice.
And it is not a good thing.
this I certainly agree with.How about Stranglethorn Vale, Desolace, Arathi Highlands (not the basin), Swamp of Sorrows, Felwood, Stonetalon (other than that Jaedenar Bloof Elf chick), etc. That's not even counting Outland.
And by small scale, I meant the individual conflicts are small scale. There are lots of small, isolated skirmishes. And my point stands, having lots of minimized conflicts is much preferable to saying "See! This proves we're at war! Now I'm going to use my full strength to 'fight back' until you are wiped off of my map."
Even if the Horde and Alliance were engaged in a small war, they were doing much better than they were doing previously. The overall conflict was cooling.
Garrosh and Varian both want a big scale war. Which is not what was happening before.
And yes, I'm glad we can agree that it's not a big thing.
The biggest problem I have with people saying that Varian is right is that, by saying he's right, they're are saying that this war is okay. What Varian did in Undercity, trying to kill Thrall is okay.
The Alliance deciding to wipe the Horde off of the map, regardless of reason (important note, the Broken Front and the Dalaran thing did not happen until
after
Varian attempted to kill Thrall), is not okay, and I would like to say whatever can be done to avoid this done. This war is not a good thing and it is not right. And Varian is wrong. Killing Thrall is the wrong thing to want to do.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
How about Stranglethorn Vale, Desolace, Arathi Highlands (not the basin), Swamp of Sorrows, Felwood, Stonetalon (other than that Jaedenar Bloof Elf chick), etc. That's not even counting Outland.
Stanglethorn & Felwood can hardly be called settlements.
Swamp of Sorrows only has a horde settlement, with the nearest alliance being in Blasted lands. Even then the hore place has tonnes of pvp flagged patrols wandering around it.
The Arathis Highlands not only has the AB entrance to it, making it a highly contested area, but has both alliance and horde patrols that fight when they meet.
Stonetalon has horde quests to kill the protectors in the alliance controled stonetalon peak (though not a pvp quest I'll admit).
in Desolace they are about as far apart as they can be and with a tonne of warring centuars and demons inbetween. (not good to be fighting there).Felwood certainly has outposts for both, Swamp of Sorrows does in fact have a small Alliance settlement that the Horde have left alone. Stonetalon, like I said, does not fight the Alliance there. The quest in question is given by a Warlock who serves Jaedenar, a Shadow Council base, it's not "the Horde" that wants you to kill them, it is a Shadow Council Warlock. Why they have not realized this I do not know. And the point in Desolace is that they are still not fighting eachother even though they occupy the same territory.
Blizzard made it so that both sides are at a tense truce, breaking into fighting in some places, but it has not yet erupted into total war, which is what Varian declarded it to be.
Post by
344679
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Post by
KaptainKrunk
As a major Alliance player, I still don't justify what Varian does as "smart", but more as instinctive. I think Varian has lost almost all faith in anything living. If you think about it, over just a few years, he's been savagely trained to kill anyone he sees in an arena ring, he has been kidnapped by The Defias, held captive by the Naga, and seen hundreds to thousands of his people killed by both the Horde and the Scourge. Now that he has returned, seeing that parts of the Scourge has broken off and joined the Horde, I think all he sees is just The Scourge working with The Horde, who was brutally killing his people. Not only that, but he could have been left out of some things. Being held captive by not one, not two, but three different groups of people within just four to five years time means he hasn't been hearing of what's been going on in the outside world. He had no idea that The Forsaken had gained control over their own decisions. He had no idea that Admiral Proudmoore had betrayed the treaty they had assigned. (I assume. I'm a bit foggy of when "Shortly after the Third War" is.) And after all this, upon returning to the throne, he had undergone fierce training, and had been taught to kill an enemy on sight, he had seen the Forsaken as the monsters they were in the Scourge, he had to deal with The Defias Brotherhood, and he had been in a ten year depression because of Katrina Prestor's powers, and had most likely been depressed from being unable to see his son.
Not only this, but when Varian was captured, he was on a diplomatic trip to Theramore Island to speak about Horde and Alliance relationships. How would you feel if while on your way to discuss relations between Humans and Orcs, you are captured by an Orc, and passed around as a meat shield to get money he can't use.
Like said, I don't take his actions to be good ones, but rather as just instinctive actions to protect his people based on what he has seen. But then again, I'm a Night Elf kinda guy, what do I know.
Post by
229054
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Post by
Skreeran
Thanks, Delt. :)
Mysleep habits are all outta wack and sometimes I miss part of an arguement. Thanks for standing up for reason when I couldn't. :P
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