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An article on Varian Wrynn being right
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Post by
Rengarde
3-I don't believe that Garrosh attacked Varian and thats it.It was a fight on both sides, while Varian preferred to wait for the attack and then counter-attack, Garrosh simply rushed into the fight with a /cleave.
If someone is acting in a hostile manner towards you, in addition to drawing lethal weapons, what do you do? Sit there and let them potentially kill you? Sure, Varian could have let the insult slide, but the unsheathing of axes in a neutral city? I would have prepared for an attack (unsheathing swords) then, too.
V: What? What are THEY doing here?
R: Let me explain!
G: I thought I smelled the stench of Alliance pigs. *unsheathes axes*
T: Control yourself!
V: You want my blood? Come then, dog! *unsheathes swords*
G: *screams and charges Varian*
V: He's mine.
*Garrosh and Varian fight*
J: Stop it!
R: We have ALL lost! *arcane push thing* A great deal in this conflict. But we stand to lose EVERYTHING if we do not stop fighting and work together!
G: A TRUE warchief would never partner with cowards. *turns and walks away*
V: At the Wrathgate, the Horde's "partnership" killed more of our men than the Scourge. I'm done with your horde. May this... death god... take you all. *portals out*
T: You... disappoint me, Garrosh.
G: Hmph. *walks away*
/ignore Wrathgate
Which brings us to the Broken Front. What was supposed to be happening at the Broken Front? Alliance and Horde attacking the Scourge. What happened? Alliance attacks the Scourge, Horde attacks the Alliance. At least, from what I've read on the forums horde-side and what I've done Alliance-side. If an enemy,
under a truce with you, attacks you with a common enemy there,
while under the truce because of the enemy, attacks you, what does that say?
The actions at the Broken Front might not provoke a war, per say, but what does Thrall DO about it? Does he demote Garrosh and place him in charge of a backwater outpost where he can do no harm? No. Does he challenge him to a duel for honor (his honor as Warchief for the truce being broken)? No. Does he challenge Garrosh to a duel for his insults? No. What does he do? Says, "I'm disappointed." WoW-Thrall needs to grow a backbone and tell Garrosh "STFU or die" and teach him a lesson.
Honestly I doubt that, especially how Thrall and his Orcs helped her take back the Undercity. I doubt she's beyond gratitude, if not forgiveness.
While we're on that subject, where the hell was Lor'themar Theron? Wouldn't he be in Sylvanas' debt as she was the one who got them in the Horde in the first place?
Probably focusing on rebuilding Eversong/Silvermoon and reinforcing his army. Between the Sunreavers in Dalaran and the Blood Elves elsewhere, his army is probably stretched pretty thin.
Also, I agree with Skreeran.
Off for the night, sleep well to all you Americans, and to you Europeans, good morning :P
Post by
Supremacy
1-The Wrathgate was an event that caused casualities on both sides, to believe that the wrathgate is a proof of how the horde is destructive and savage would be ignoring what Jaina always says in the peace talks.
That's not necessarily true. The fact that the attack came from the Horde side, and from Horde plague launchers (or whatever they're called) is a big deal.
I am not saying, though, that the entirety of the Horde is to blame for this. What I am saying is that you have to take that into consideration.
Interestingly, if Varian was the hothead that people seem to think he is, then he wouldn't have bothered with sending anyone to Ogrimmar to talk to Thrall about it. It would have just been on, right then.
Sending Jaina and to speak to Thrall to even bother to get an explanation was a diplomatic move. One that showed that someone was not just reacting emotionally to a situation. It was a level headed, cool, calm, collected thing to do.
3-I don't believe that Garrosh attacked Varian and thats it.It was a fight on both sides, while Varian preferred to wait for the attack and then counter-attack, Garrosh simply rushed into the fight with a /cleave.
This simply is not true. I've heard from a lot of people - in this and other forums - trying to imply that Varian was somehow the aggressor in that attack. That somehow, he planned or provoked Garrosh to attack as part of some kind of Machiavellian scheme.
Believing that is - and I rarely say this in arguments or debates, because it's usually not called for - just wrong. I don't mean "wrong" as in unethical, or a disagreement with your point, or anything. No, I mean wrong as in this simply is not true.
I'm going to paraphrase what a comedian said in a special and apply it to this: "There has to come a point where Alliance and Horde, where we see a piece of footage, and we just agree on what the hell reality is."
Varian saw Thrall and Garrosh in the summit, unaware that they had been invited. He said "What are
they
doing here?"
Garrosh said "I thought I smelled the stench of Alliance pigs", and then drew his weapons.
Not on a battlefield, not in heated combat. He drew his weapons on the king of Stormwind in a neutral city during a peaceful summit. This is already an act of war, by the way.
You cannot look at that footage, then say that Varian somehow started that. There is no evidence to support that, and all the evidence that exists plainly and definitively contradicts that. If one guy takes a swing at someone else, you don't say the guy who blocked is at fault.
4-I also agree with your post above, yet, I still believe that Varian is being guided by his own personnal feelings, unlike other leaders.Those are:Sylvanas, Tyrande, Jaina, the Argent Dawn, Dalaran, and you could even say: the blood elves.
The Argent Dawn and Kirin Tor are factions, so they have different goals. Good ones, too.
The thing is, I have yet to see an instance of Varian being guided by his own feelings. That is, I have yet to be given any example where his reaction was anything but logical, and even political.
No, he doesn't like orcs. We all get that.
That doesn't mean he's not doing what's right, and it doesn't mean that he's going to throw Stormwind to the wolves. Even if you don't like the man, you have to judge him by his actions, not his feelings.
Post by
Patty
Interestingly, if Varian was the hothead that people seem to think he is, then he wouldn't have bothered with sending anyone to Ogrimmar to talk to Thrall about it. It would have just been on, right then.
Sending Jaina and to speak to Thrall to even bother to get an explanation was a diplomatic move. One that showed that someone was not just reacting emotionally to a situation. It was a level headed, cool, calm, collected thing to do.
As far as I recall Jaina went of her own accord.
Post by
Troen
Jaina probaby did go of her own volition. However, Varian sends you (your character) to assist her in a diplomatic mission. Says so in the quest text.
Bottom line, Varian isn't going for blind genocide. He CAN be level headed.
Post by
Skreeran
4-I also agree with your post above, yet, I still believe that Varian is being guided by his own personnal feelings, unlike other leaders.Those are:Sylvanas, Tyrande, Jaina, the Argent Dawn, Dalaran, and you could even say: the blood elves.
The Argent Dawn and Kirin Tor are factions, so they have different goals. Good ones, too.
The thing is, I have yet to see an instance of Varian being guided by his own feelings. That is, I have yet to be given any example where his reaction was anything but logical, and even political.
No, he doesn't like orcs. We all get that.
That doesn't mean he's not doing what's right, and it doesn't mean that he's going to throw Stormwind to the wolves. Even if you don't like the man, you have to judge him by his actions, not his feelings.His actions are only gonna make the conflict with the Horde worse, causing more death, more destruction, and more defeat at the hands of the Lich King.
Explain to me how it's a wise decision to rip open a war on a third front?
The point of the matter is, the Alliance and Horde were not in an all out war. There was alot of messed up things that the Horde did in Northrend, but that conflict should be solved there, not in an all out war. By declaring war, he's only enabling the members of the Horde that
want
to be at war. They were for the most part being held back, but now that war is upon us, who's going to keep them from attacking Alliance elsewhere?
He's only supporting Garrosh's warmongering by actually starting a war.
Post by
Supremacy
His actions are only gonna make the conflict with the Horde worse, causing more death, more destruction, and more defeat at the hands of the Lich King.
Explain to me how it's a wise decision to rip open a war on a third front?
Because in his eyes, the Horde is not quietly plotting against the Alliance. This is not a potential enemy. The Horde are actively moving against the Alliance. Every time the Alliance try to confront these massive threats to...well, everything, really, the Horde does something to undermine those efforts.
This is not a matter of him just declaring war on someone for no reason. This is really him defending the interests of the Alliance as a whole. It's one thing to have to deal with the Scourge and the old gods. That's hard enough.
Now imagine that someone keeps killing your men while you do it.
The point of the matter is, the Alliance and Horde were not in an all out war. There was alot of messed up things that the Horde did in Northrend, but that conflict should be solved there, not in an all out war. By declaring war, he's only enabling the members of the Horde that
want
to be at war. They were for the most part being held back, but now that war is upon us, who's going to keep them from attacking Alliance elsewhere?
He's only supporting Garrosh's warmongering by actually starting a war.
I'm not...I'm not really sure what you're thinking, here. If all out war is declared, than all out war is declared. I don't really see, for example, war being waged on Kalimdor, but not Northrend. Or vice versa.
And to be honest? I don't think Varian is afraid of the rest of the Horde. I really don't think he's terrified of the Horde war machine, or anything like that.
I'm not saying that he wants to put his men in direct combat. I'm just saying that he doesn't view the Horde as a juggernaut that can not be stopped.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Supremacy
I am not saying, though, that the entirety of the Horde is to blame for this. What I am saying is that you have to take that into consideration.
Yes, but Varian took that into consideration as if it was the Horde to blame.
Well, of course he did. That's a natural reaction. If two guilds are doing a raid, or something, and a member from guild A deliberately causes both guilds to die, then yes, guild A is going to be looked at with suspicion.
Maybe there was a legit reason for it. Maybe not. But I've seen too many people on too many forums acting like it's some huge prejudicial irrational leap in thought to think that maybe the Horde has some responsibility for what happened at the Wrathgate. Yes, the Horde as a whole. Either they knew about it, and they were complicit, or they didn't, and they don't know what's going on in their own homes.
The proper way to handle this would just be to say "Yes, our side screwed up, and we're taking care of that problem". Too many people are forgetting that first part. As far as screw-ups go, this was a pretty big one.
R.A.S., Putress, dreadlord, blah blah blah. A Horde attack was responsible for the deaths of Horde and Alliance soldiers. Man up, okay? You can't just pretend that some of the blame doesn't belong on the Horde, just like the Alliance couldn't pretend some of the blame belonged with them if the Explorer's League had done the same thing.
I must be frank, I don't know how was the Alliance side there.But I suppose it was something like this:
V:Go and help Jaina <player>.
.
.
.
J:It was a betrayal within the Horde bla bla bla Sylvanas almost di- bla bla bla they lost the Undercity.
V:Assemble the Army!We are marching towards the Undercity!
Delt:That wasn't level headed.
I had meant, by and large, that it was level headed to send someone to even talk to Thrall. Remember, Varian had no idea what happened before Jaina went there. All he knew was the Horde attacked everyone. When they were supposed to be working together. And killed the man who had been raising his son, and protecting Stormwind in his absence.
And after all of that? He still didn't openly wage war. He still tried the diplomatic route.
As far as moving on the Undercity, he was more moving against the person who had planned the assault. The Horde said they were going to move on them, but, really, given what had just happened - what had just happened - it's understandable, I think, if he doesn't really think they're capable of dealing with him. Also, it's not so much that he was trying to get the Undercity as it was that he was trying to get it
back
.
His actions were stupid here, better than to declare war agains the Horde would be to press on the Lich King war effort and to fortify Alliance territory.
That could not only stop some skirmishes from happening (which are equal to lost men) but also guarantee victory to the Alliance in a future war.
You can only call his actions stupid if they make no sense, and are actually counterproductive without serving any greater purpose.
Varian is going after someone who has openly stated he wants every living thing on the planet to die. This included his own people. He wants everyone dead so much that he's willing to sacrifice the truce going on during the fight against Arthas.
It is not stupid to decide that that threat needs to be dealt with.
Also, it's hard to fight someone when you have to keep watching over your back for other enemies who have a history of striking when your back is turned. Bad enough having to fight, say, Jason Statham one on one. It gets worse if you know Jet Li has a history of attacking from behind while you're in the middle of the fight.
The Horde, in his eyes, is an active threat. That is why he seems to be on the offensive.
As long as we're on the subject, I may have missed the point where he actually declared open war. Closest I could find is some text where he said "Peace? Useless... It's gotten us nowhere. We have lost some of our greatest heroes to "peace." Let us see what battle brings..."
And even that's not, you know, an open declaration of war. I would appreciate it if someone could refer me to some quest or something where he said that.
I'm not...I'm not really sure what you're thinking, here. If all out war is declared, than all out war is declared. I don't really see, for example, war being waged on Kalimdor, but not Northrend. Or vice versa.As far as I know, there is no war being waged in Kalimdor.
That's why I said "for example". Specifically, I was responding to a comment that seemed to imply it was possible for the Horde and Alliance to be at war on Northrend, but not on Kalimdor/Eastern Kingdoms.
Post by
344679
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
The point of the matter is, the Alliance and Horde were not in an all out war. There was alot of messed up things that the Horde did in Northrend, but that conflict should be solved there, not in an all out war. By declaring war, he's only enabling the members of the Horde that
want
to be at war. They were for the most part being held back, but now that war is upon us, who's going to keep them from attacking Alliance elsewhere?
He's only supporting Garrosh's warmongering by actually starting a war.
I'm not...I'm not really sure what you're thinking, here. If all out war is declared, than all out war is declared. I don't really see, for example, war being waged on Kalimdor, but not Northrend. Or vice versa.That's what I'm saying. Declaring war on the Horde because of a few isolated events in Northrend will cause all out war all throughout Azeroth.
That's what Garrosh and his supporters want. They're just itching for the opportunity to go to war. So far, Thrall and his camp have held back the ones who want war, but if a war starts, there's only going to be more problems than the was before.
The Broken Front, for example. If you recall, that happened
after
Varian declared war on the Horde in Undercity. I think that may have had something to do with the Horde's audacity there. Perhaps if war hadn't already been declared, they wouldn't have seen the Alliance as an enemy that they were at war with.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rengarde
Well, of course he did. That's a natural reaction. If two guilds are doing a raid, or something, and a member from guild A deliberately causes both guilds to die, then yes, guild A is going to be looked at with suspicion.
Remember that "guild A" killed that guilty member and whoever supported him, that fact alone should give the Horde some credit.Yet, Varian forgot all that and promplty declared war on Thrall in the Undercity.Ignoring the obvious trail of blood that the Horde left on it's way through the traitorous members of the Royal Apothecary Society.
I would also note that another member from Guild A is spamming trade about how horrible Guild B is and the GM of Guild A isn't doing anything about the lies the spammer is saying.... despite his normally fair attitude towards disputes. All he does is say in gchat about how disappointed he is in the member spamming :( Whereas normally /gkick and an apology.
You can only call his actions stupid if they make no sense, and are actually counterproductive without serving any greater purpose.
Varian is going after someone who has openly stated he wants every living thing on the planet to die. This included his own people. He wants everyone dead so much that he's willing to sacrifice the truce going on during the fight against Arthas.
It is not stupid to decide that that threat needs to be dealt with.
They are counter-productive, Alliance soldiers will die to the Horde while less could die in the near future, with a better prepared Alliance.
Horde territory on Kalimdor is heavily fortified, so is Night elven.Unlike that of southern Stormwind, as an example.
The best to do is to fortify yourself and wait for the enemy attack.
The Putress threat was already dealt with, and there are more fingers pointing out that the Horde won't be a problem until the Lich King dies(unless if Blizzard screw up again :P) than pointing the opposite.The undead forsaken are greatly weakened and Garrosh's figure is as well, being Garrosh the only Horde leader who displayed hostility to the Alliance.
When you are trying to fight a war on another front against a more powerful enemy,
However, the events in Dalaran, The Wrathgate, and The Broken Front have shown that the WoW-Thrall cannot control the Horde enough for it to not be an active threat to the Alliance. When a greater, common enemy of the Horde and the Alliance is present, they attack members of the Alliance. WoW-Thrall simply cannot control his Horde enough for the Alliance to work side by side with it, or even be able to ignore it. I realize Thrall is not omnipresent, but yet.... you would assume he would have heard SOMETHING about it. Especially in Dalaran, where he was present.
And even that's not, you know, an open declaration of war. I would appreciate it if someone could refer me to some quest or something where he said that.
Battle for the Undercity - Jaina stops Varian from attacking Thrall.
That's why I said "for example". Specifically, I was responding to a comment that seemed to imply it was possible for the Horde and Alliance to be at war on Northrend, but not on Kalimdor/Eastern Kingdoms.
Aren't we?I don't think that even Alterac Valley is on the level of SoTA and Wintergrasp.
Out of the corner of your eye you see a rogue of the opposite faction.
You're not seeing a rogue, its more like this.
You see and 20 orcs, taurens and trolls in defensive position, charging the Scourge.While there is one orc that actually can be seen as a threat.
However, Varian sees it as a rogue coming to attack from behind. He sees this rogue as the previous ganker, who has ganked you multiple times, camping your corpse. Every time he has encountered the Horde, they basically tried to kill him, or his people and loved ones. IE the First War and Garona, Doomhammer, Rethgar (yes, I'm mentioning the DM arenas because of the fact that the comic is actual WoW lore), Putress, Garrosh.... the list goes on. Almost every encounter with the Horde with Varian has resulted in a death of someone close to him. The Horde, to Varian, IS a rogue looking to stab him and the Alliance in the back. And with the WoW-Thrall, that might be what it actually becomes.... :(
Post by
Supremacy
Hm. A lot of ground.
Remember that "guild A" killed that guilty member and whoever supported him, that fact alone should give the Horde some credit.Yet, Varian forgot all that and promplty declared war on Thrall in the Undercity.Ignoring the obvious trail of blood that the Horde left on it's way through the traitorous members of the Royal Apothecary Society.
Not a lot of credit, no. You give someone credit if they stop a problem before it starts. You give them credit if they immediately handle a situation.
You don't give them credit for eventually cleaning up the mess that they made. If I went into a restaurant and started a fire, you don't give me credit for telling the firefighters what kind of fuel I used to start it.
They are counter-productive, Alliance soldiers will die to the Horde while less could die in the near future, with a better prepared Alliance.
Horde territory on Kalimdor is heavily fortified, so is Night elven.Unlike that of southern Stormwind, as an example.
The best to do is to fortify yourself and wait for the enemy attack.
The Putress threat was already dealt with, and there are more fingers pointing out that the Horde won't be a problem until the Lich King dies(unless if Blizzard screw up again :P) than pointing the opposite.The undead forsaken are greatly weakened and Garrosh's figure is as well, being Garrosh the only Horde leader who displayed hostility to the Alliance.
You want the Alliance to just sit back and wait for another attack? How many times can someone throw rocks at you before you actually start taking a more proactive role?
I'm also fairly certain that Varian feels the Alliance is already prepared to fight the Horde, as far as supplies and such goes. Besides, the Alliance can't afford to wait for the Horde to do something else. There's too much at stake.
The Putress threat was dealt with, yes, by Varian.
And even that's not, you know, an open declaration of war. I would appreciate it if someone could refer me to some quest or something where he said that.
Battle for the Undercity - Jaina stops Varian from attacking Thrall.
No, Jaina stopped everyone from attacking everyone. But at least that was in the heat of battle. It wasn't, you know, during a diplomatic meeting.
That's why I said "for example". Specifically, I was responding to a comment that seemed to imply it was possible for the Horde and Alliance to be at war on Northrend, but not on Kalimdor/Eastern Kingdoms.
Aren't we?I don't think that even Alterac Valley is on the level of SoTA and Wintergrasp.
The battlegrounds, I think, would represent those skirmishes that people have mentioned. I meant that it wasn't possible to wage full out, 100% war just on Northrend and not have territories on Kalimdor/Eastern Kingdoms uninvolved, as it was implied by someone else.
That's what I'm saying. Declaring war on the Horde because of a few isolated events in Northrend will cause all out war all throughout Azeroth.
When people say things like "a few isolated events or incidents", what they're usually trying to say is "it's not as big a deal as other people are trying to make it out to be."
You cannot refer to the Wrathgate like that. That was not some one-time thing that got blown out of proportion. Especially since that led to the discovery of just what was happening with human experimentation and such in the Undercity.
And if you're referring to Garrosh's attack during the meeting in Dalaran? Well, yes, you can declare war over that, because that's an act of war. You cannot attack another diplomat like that. Especially the king. That in and of itself is declaring war.
Of course, I should probably mention that I'm not really so sure why Garrosh wants war with the Alliance. I'm just saying, the Horde doesn't really have that great of a track record going against the Alliance.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
By the way, I was just thinking about this... Do you think the Wrathgate has any base in real world terrorist events?
I'm thinking that if you compare Putress to an Afghani terrorist and Thrall with President Karzhai, it really is rather similar. After a terrorist attack by said terrorist, the world shouldn't attack Afghanistan, instead, they should work with the country's government to find the source.
And in this case that's what happened, "Afghanistan's" government worked along side say, the U.S., to find the source of the problem and deal with it. And then President Varian Wrynn declared war on Afghanistan.
Obviously it's not a perfect allagory, but I think it's good to look at it from a different angle.
Post by
Supremacy
I suppose that if the internal struggle for power between Tyrande and Fandral makes so that the Archdruid betrays the Priestess and that ignite an event which will cause the death of thousands of alliance and horde members, its Varian's fault, because he didn't see something coming from the other side of the world.
Of course it doesn't matter if Varian stops that conflict from putting even more lives at stake.
?
For one, that's not even remotely what happened, here. For one, in that hypothetical you proposed? Varian Wyrnn has nothing to do with Darnassus. The blame lies more with Sylvannas than Thrall, if you're looking for who I would individiually blame, if forced to assign blame.
Two, even if that did happen, there is at least a noticeable struggle for power between Tyrande and Staghelm. If something actually happened, at least you'd know where it came from. This would be more like if the Silverwing Sentinels decided to suddenly revolt, or some such.
Three, I don't think that Tyrande would be off the hook if Thrall and Co. had to invade Darnassus, and found the remains of several orcs that had been taken prisoner and experimented on, you know, to save the forests. Especially if this took place like right in the Cenarion Enclave, or right outside the bank, or some place that wasn't hidden. When you don't hide things, you have no shame about them. So you're just doing things shamelessly. Not a real good thing when it comes to humanoid experimentation. It casts your morals in a bad light.
Because even if she had led a successful retaking of Darnassus, way too many questions would be on the table. Why didn't you know what was going on in your house? Can you guarantee that this won't happen again? What the hell are you doing with those orcs?
This would also be made much worse, by the way, if Tyrande's general then went and attacked Thrall during a diplomatic meeting.
You want the Alliance to just sit back and wait for another attack? How many times can someone throw rocks at you before you actually start taking a more proactive role?
Yes I want, the same way they did in the Second War.Where they fotified the southern coast, looked for new allies with the High Elves, etc... and then counter attacked, while the Old Horde attacked their positions in Stromgarde, etc.
Guess who won?
You see? That's the point.
They've been through this, before. You just want them to prepare for an attack that they know is going to come, while they're also trying to deal with someone who wants to destroy the world. Two someones, right. And you want them to just wait for this attack? To prepare themselves for the fight that they know is going to happen, but just not when? To sit there and wait for another unprovoked attack on Alliance citizens? Again?
There's a line, man. There's a line.
I'm also fairly certain that Varian feels the Alliance is already prepared to fight the Horde, as far as supplies and such goes.
Right now?Of course not, I'm sure that the army itself is divided, some see the Horde as a threat while others, the Undead Scourge.I could even say that some would defend the Horde.
As pointed by Skreeran, the Broken Front happened after Varian declared war on the Horde in Undercity.You could say that when Garrosh attacked he was merely "responding" to what Varian said, not to speak that the army was ready to attack the undead, not the Horde.Ready?I don't think so.
I would argue against this. First of all, I don't really think too many citizens of Stormwind would defend the Horde. Aside from the whole "orcs burned down our city and killed our queen" thing, there's the fact that the Horde was responsible for the death of the man who had held us together during bad times.
You also have to assume that most of Stormwind doesn't really know the specifics of the Wrathgate and battle for Undercity. All they're hearing is "orcs killed Bolvar, Forsaken experimenting on humans". I think the reason that Jaina, Rhonin, and Tirion stand out, for example, is because they're willing to look at the orcs and Horde as more than just the enemy.
*Shrug* Valeera Sanguinar is pretty much confined to the docks. Farseer Umbrua, the Draenei shaman trainer, is stuck in the Valley of Heroes. For the same reason. Stormwind citizens aren't the most open minded of folks.
But you want them to believe that there's such a thing as "good Horde", and that the death of Bolvar at the hands of "Horde treachery" is just, you know, that was just a political thing.
...good luck with that.
As pointed by Skreeran, the Broken Front happened after Varian declared war on the Horde in Undercity.You could say that when Garrosh attacked he was merely "responding" to what Varian said, not to speak that the army was ready to attack the undead, not the Horde.Ready?I don't think so.
I've avoided mentioning the Broken Front. The reason for that is because Blizzard did something kind of out of character, there. There is no leeway for that, there is no subtext. The forces of the Horde were - and this is extremely rare for Blizzard to do - completely and totally in the wrong. Period.
There are no extenuating circumstances. There was no coup. There was no demonic blood, there was no cultural misunderstanding. There is no reasoning that makes this okay. The Horde was the bad guy.
The forces of the Alliance were going to secure a strategic point against the Scourge. This was a chance for a victory against the Scourge, enemies to everyone. The Horde hid like cowards, waited until the Alliance was in a fight, and then attacked from behind.
I'm not used to the Horde acting like this. Orcs don't hide from fights. It seems to go against their culture. So, really, there's...there's no excuse for this. It was just handled poorly from a quest design point of view. I've heard from people who exclusively play Horde, and even they say they don't feel right about this quest.
It was just wrong. You can't defend something like that. That's one reason I don't talk about it. There are going to be some people who try to justify that craven act of self-destructive cowardice. If I have a problem with someone during a plague, I probably shouldn't kill him when he's on the verge of creating the antidote.
The Putress threat was dealt with, yes, by Varian.
Wrong.Believe it or not but: The Battle for the Undercity was a joint action between the Horde and the Alliance.
If Thrall wasn't attacking through the main gates at that time, you could say that Varian's army would be defeated.Because there Varimathras' forces wouldn't be divided.
Actually, this isn't wrong. Varian and his forces killed Putress.
And by that logic, you can also turn around and say that if Varian and his forces weren't attacking from the sewers, Thrall's army would have been defeated. Because the forces wouldn't be divided.
Post by
Supremacy
No, Jaina stopped everyone from attacking everyone. But at least that was in the heat of battle. It wasn't, you know, during a diplomatic meeting.
Didn't Varian yell something like: "DIE HORDE!"?I believe that the Alliance knights charged before the Horde grunts.
Oh. Oh, he said much more than that.
"Then why are you justifying--"
Heat of battle. Everyone was still covered in blood and had weapons drawn. Adrenaline still pumping.
I mean, probably not the most diplomatic move he's made, but, hell, he just found evidence that the Horde had been working on a plague in public and shamelessly experimenting on humans. I can't really say I blame him.
Post by
Supremacy
By the way, I was just thinking about this... Do you think the Wrathgate has any base in real world terrorist events?
I'm thinking that if you compare Putress to an Afghani terrorist and Thrall with President Karzhai, it really is rather similar. After a terrorist attack by said terrorist, the world shouldn't attack Afghanistan, instead, they should work with the country's government to find the source.
And in this case that's what happened, "Afghanistan's" government worked along side say, the U.S., to find the source of the problem and deal with it. And then President Varian Wrynn declared war on Afghanistan.
Obviously it's not a perfect allagory, but I think it's good to look at it from a different angle.
No. I don't think that.
We're also not going there.
Emotions already run high in this game, and in forums. We are not going to add real world events to this.
Watch:
"Saurfang is a chump and a coward."
Now, watch this:
" is a chump and a coward."
We are not going to add this to the mix. It's in remarkably poor form. Best to keep talk about Azeroth remained squarely on Azeroth.
While I have no official control over what's posted here, this technically is my thread. Thus far, it has remained civil. Out of respect for the fact that this
is
my thread, if not out of respect for me, I will ask everyone to keep events on Earth out of discussion on Azeroth. I don't care for that, and I doubt the moderators would care for it, either. And they actually can do things, like warn people, ban accounts, and lock threads.
Why even go there?
...besides, I'm fairly certain that if we did bring Earth into Azeroth, I would be elected as their offical and unquestioned king.
And on the real?
No one wants that.
Post by
229054
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