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Cat dps - we dont need hit cap any more?
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Post by
Aadramelekh
You just can be 1-2% below hit cap and actually do better damage than hitcapped.
Me and others have said that too. But your first affirmation, that hit and expertise can be completely neglected (OP) is simply nonsense.
So you can totally lose your +hit to zero, replace it with +crit and actually do more dps.
When we talk about 2-3% variations, the differences aren't great. But when talking about a total 14.5% chance to miss attacks, things get much more ugly.
And in this last math filled post you simply prove what all have said: anything below hit cap will result in a DPS loss. Negligible, but still a loss.
So overall you will do 0.34% less damage from white and skills attacks, will lose miserable amount of your CPs and gain 1% more damage with rip.Wrong. Raising crit from 50 to 51% does not result in a 1% increase in Rip damage.
If you want to go on your math, in a real situation, where one could get around 100 Rip ticks (2400 normal damage, 5424 critical tick), we look at 120,000 + 271,200 = 391,200 total damage @ 50% crit and 394,224 total damage @ 51% crit, or a 0.77% increase. So decreasing Melee Swing + Shred + Mangle damage (60% of total) by 0.34% (according to your own calculations) to increase my Rip (30% of total) by 0.77% is not an overall increase, but more likely constant or even (in unlucky situations) an overall DECREASE in damage done.
There. Q.E.D.
Each additional percentage point will provide a decreasing marginal effect. And if that increase in crit comes at the expense of hit, then the loss in Melee Swings + Shred (which combined, provide almost 54-55% of total damage) will be greater than the benefit for Rip (which tops out around 30-31% of total damage).
Indeed, when one is hit/expertise capped and can trade, say, 1% hit for 2% crit by some gear replacement, then yes, the tradeoff is acceptable. Otherwise it is not worth it, especially since any decent geared feral will have anywhere between 50 and 60% crit raid buffed.
And WTF, in the end of your OP, you said if you are not hit/expertise capped its better to choose +hit over haste, because its more stable and reliable.So yes, gg bashing hit / expertise and then going back to hugging them again :)) Hahahahahaha :))
Post by
310761
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
262888
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Emmerald
How nice - absolutely all theorycrafting so far sustains the idea that hit and expertise capping are the priorities and suddenly you come up to overthrow this. With no solid proof whatsoever. No, thank you, I prefer less crit and AP but make sure that I hit with all my attacks.
Well, there has been a lot of theorycrafting and number crunching behind the issue (regardless of whether the OP referred to any of it).
Statistically, Hit and Expertise (when attacking from behind) add less overall DPS than say Crit or Agi (or ArPen these days). Statistically, calculated with a model. I think the result is also the same with simulators, which take timing better into account.
So in light, you are wrong. Sorry to say that.
There is an entirely different reason why Hit and Expertise are considered important to be capped (or nearly capped). It's the same as with Crit immunity in the past; you just don't want to face the unlucky situation when it really counts. With Crit immunity it was dieing to a unlucky Crit-Crush sequence (or the like); with Hit and Expertise it's about missing the hit when you can't redo the attack. In a non-movement fight, this really isn't a big deal, but there are many fights where you have little time to do you attacks, and you need to get them in then.
In reality, the question typically is "should I max Hit/Expertise, or can I leave it a little short and have more of other stats?" This is because we already get a decent amount of Hit and Expertise in the top-notch gear, whether we like it or not. The general rule of thumb is "don't gem for Hit or Expertise", but you can obviously break that if you get into trouble for not having them high enough. Gem of Agility, or ArPen if you have it already high enough from gear.
Post by
Aadramelekh
with Hit and Expertise it's about missing the hit when you can't redo the attackExactly. Missing a Shred will consume 42 energy with no damaging results and no CPs, thus leaving the druid waiting for another 4 seconds for energy to use it again. That is the big issue. Especially in those situations you mentioned yourself:there are many fights where you have little time to do your attacks, and you need to get them in then
And actually talking about variations of 1-2% hit or crit or expertise isn't really gonna make or break the DPS. When the numbers move more into the territory of 6-7% and above we start seeing differences.
Statistically, Hit and Expertise (when attacking from behind) add less overall DPS than say Crit or Agi (or ArPen these days). Statistically, calculated with a model. I think the result is also the same with simulators, which take timing better into account.
So in light, you are wrong. Sorry to say that.Wrong only in the situation above, when talking about being hit/expertise capped and replacing 1% hit with 1% crit, for instance. But if we are to take the OP assumption and completely neglect hit/expertise, and have 14.5% miss and 60% crit, a decrease of total miss chance from 14.5% to 4.5% plus decreasing the crit from 60% to 50% (by swapping crit for hit/expertise) WILL yield better DPS results. Such cases are extreme examples and really don't matter.
The only real issue of this thread was that the OP claimed that neglecting hit and expertise and only going cor AP/crit/haste/ArP will yield better results than trying to cap hit and expertise.
Post by
262888
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Post by
303527
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Post by
Aadramelekh
But you forgot to mention,
that next hit will give you 2 CPs and 2x damage
. So who cares? Average result will be the same. You can't be 100% sure it will yield 2x damage and 2x CP. And besides, common sense says: you missed that Shred, those are 42
wasted
energy. DPS is LOWER. In the 5 seconds it takes you to Shred once (because you missed it once), I Shred twice, being hit capped. 5 seconds in which your Savage Roar or your Rip aren't ticking. 5 seconds in which you only auto attack for 800 / 1800 while I auto attack
and
Shred for 3600 / 8200.
But in theory, on dummy, you can stack crit up to this value and have better results.This time I will quote you again:So who cares?The training dummy allows only for fine tuning in rotations and is by no means a real DPS meter when compared to the raid environment.
Threat name is "we dont need hit cap any more", not "we dont need hit any more".First of all it is 'threa
d
'. Second, may I remind you your own phrase:So you can totally lose your +hit to zero, replace it with +crit and actually do more dps.There. This is what I was debating. Not the situation where one is hit capped and swaps 1% hit for 1% crit. That is called fine tuning and within reasonable limits can yield 1-2% more DPS. And in the end, guess what 1% more DPS means? That's right. 1% It can be less or more depending on RNG. In the end, who cares?
All this theorydrafting is well known, in the end, from typical rogue DPS topics. Rogues aren't always fully advantaged to go for complete hit cap, because their crit/AP remains too low. The same reasoning is valid here, with the mention that hit cap is MUCH, MUCH easier attainable as a feral druid than as a
dual wielding
rogue. And as such, it is strongly recommended that hit / expertise caps are DPS priorities. Beyong this point, it's all about tweaking, fine tuning, min/maxing, juggling with slight percentage variations based on gear availability.
Hit rating IS important, Expertise IS important. It's my thought that you should push it as high as you can without actually gimping your gear while still staying ABOVE 6% hit, and ABOVE 5% expertise.
Like I said in an earlier post: the need for additional hit decreases as hit value increases.Well put. This is common sense and tweaking.
Post by
Lightrain
Hehe, I must say, if you are swapping 1% hit for agility, it would be a possible good upgrade assuming you were capped or slightly above cap. BUT, show me a piece of gear that has
agility
in place of
hit rating
.
I'm not sure I can believe that 1% hit is equal to or slightly less dps than 1% crit. Armor pen sure, I can believe that, but not crit rating. That may be a bit off.
One thing to note. This
IS
about DPE. If you miss an CP builder, you will generally lose the chance to squeeze in a FB into your rotation and lower your dps by missing the attack as well, and consuming energy on a miss.
People who play hit capped, and then start missing CP builders during fights will notice the difference, and will not like it.
I'll give you an example. When I was still grinding gear, my PvP and PvE sets were relatively close in attack power and crit, but I'm expertise soft capped and around 7% hit in my PvE set. I was pulling 3800-3900 dps on non gimmick fights at the time. I accidentally forgot to swap my PvP gear for my PvE gear, and did only 3100 dps. That's much, much more than the 6.5% expertise plus 2% lower hit at the time. It does show, and nearly a 20% output decrease for 8% off avoidance caps says a LOT.
Now, a 1% off cap is not so radical on the meters, and may be negligible, and there is probably a point where if you stack other stats instead of hit
up to "X" point
, you will do more dps. You should not sacrifice a load of hit/expertise for other stats, it will start taking chunks out of your dps.
The fact of the matter is, if you have no hit or expertise in an affinity for AP, agil, and armor pen, you will really, really feel it.
Verdict- Get as close to the hit cap as you can without going over(slightly under cap will probably be better than slightly over). Make sure you are expertise soft capped(it helps for situations when you are forced to fight from the front as well and reduces that huge gap in your avoidance table that will start to hurt your dps).
Post by
Heckler
<scroll up>
Emmerald pretty much nailed the conversation. The numbers hold true that in a statistical model, +Hit is NOT as helpful as ArPen or Agil, plain and simple (and since he wrote what i consider to be the most trustworthy model of TBC Feral-ness, I think he's got more sway than... anyone.
He also nailed the reason that it doesn't matter, and the reason why almost every reply in this thread has you all angry at the OP... Being hit capped is important for all sorts of reasons OTHER than maxxing DPS on a training dummy. But some fights are just like the training dummy -- Next time you're on patchwerk swap out as much Hit as you can for ArPen and Agi and see the results.
Also: When you miss with a Combo Move, you don't lose the entire energy cost. Its some percentage... I don't have a source on this yet, but I'm looking and I'm almost positive. Finishing moves cost 100%, but thats why we have the talent. Combo moves don't need it because it already works that way. (searching for a source, flame away)
Post by
Lightrain
Not necessarily. You also should remember, that some people will use sub par gear to obtain the hit cap, while the crit/agil items you are substituting in could be of higher quality all the way around.
Post by
Emmerald
with Hit and Expertise it's about missing the hit when you can't redo the attackExactly. Missing a Shred will consume 42 energy with no damaging results and no CPs, thus leaving the druid waiting for another 4 seconds for energy to use it again. That is the big issue. Especially in those situations you mentioned yourself:
Since when? AFAIK, you lose only 20% of the cost if you miss. You gain the energy back before global cooldown fades, so that's why misses don't really matter much (unless you only had that one chance to connect). With finishers, you used to lose all energy, but now with the talent you're in a same situation as with the specials.
Post by
Lightrain
Since when? AFAIK, you lose only 20% of the cost if you miss. You gain the energy back before global cooldown fades, so that's why misses don't really matter much (unless you only had that one chance to connect).
With finishers, you used to lose all energy, but now with the talent you're in a same situation as with the specials.
Since when?
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=48410
Post by
Emmerald
Since when? AFAIK, you lose only 20% of the cost if you miss. You gain the energy back before global cooldown fades, so that's why misses don't really matter much (unless you only had that one chance to connect).
With finishers, you used to lose all energy, but now with the talent you're in a same situation as with the specials.
Since when?
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=48410
That's just for finishers. AFAIK, the same effect has always been a part of normal special attacks.
Post by
144872
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Heckler
Exactly. Missing a Shred will consume 42 energy with no damaging results and no CPs, thus leaving the druid waiting for another 4 seconds for energy to use it again. That is the big issue. Especially in those situations you mentioned yourself:
Since when? AFAIK, you lose only 20% of the cost if you miss. You gain the energy back before global cooldown fades, so that's why misses don't really matter much (unless you only had that one chance to connect). With finishers, you used to lose all energy, but now with the talent you're in a same situation as with the specials.
Confirmed: When a Non-Finishing attack misses, you are only penalized 20% of the attacks cost.
I verified this by spamming Claw on the lv 80 Target dummy on my Level 28 druid. I lost exactly 8 energy per miss. The energy I lost was always regenerated before the GCD was up. In the case of Shred, 20% of 42 is 8.4, and you regenerate 10 Energy per Cat-GCD, meaning a Shred miss 'wastes' no energy, only time and combo points... In order for a miss to 'waste' energy, it would need to cost 50 Energy or more, in which case a miss would result in a net loss of energy over 1 second.
I can provide Screencaps if you want, but its not hard to go test for yourself.
edit: doublepost.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Heckler
I'm not disagreeing with the fact that a miss is undesirable. I'm disagreeing with the fact that a single miss is as devastating as Aadr and others have made it out to be.
A missed shred has the same overall effect as looking at the TV for 1 second. Thats my point, and it was in direct response to Aadr. who claimed that a missed shred meant 4 seconds of downtime. Clearly this isn't the case, its 1 second of downtime due solely to the GCD, The energy cost is meaningless since the GCD is still delaying your DPS after the energy has already been regenerated. So the only true costs of a miss are 1 second of GCD and 1.X combo points, there is no energy cost as long as you count these things.
Of course a miss is undesirable, no one is arguing that. The bottom line is, the higher percentage Rake and Rip are of your overall damage done, the less important Hit Rating and Expertise are.
=============
@pelf: Since DoT ticks can't miss or be dodged, miss% and dodge% have no effect on the crit chance of DoT
ticks
whatsoever, right? Once Rip / Rake is on the target, the ticks have a 'crit cap' of 100%, regardless of your stats, right?
Post by
144872
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Heckler
Of course a miss is undesirable, no one is arguing that. The bottom line is, the higher percentage Rake and Rip are of your overall damage done, the less important Hit Rating and Expertise are.
I keep reading this in a lot of posts... and it simply is not true.
Auto Attacks, Shred, FB and Swipe make up for more than 60-80% of your raid damage..not bleeds.
While yes, rip does a lot more damage than before. It by no means grants any merit to you gimping your hit. Its a finisher.
NOT
your main sourse of dps.
Which is exactly why I'm not supporting having 0 hit. I'm just pointing out the validity of the OP's point, at least in a certain context, and pointing out that it should not be unbelievable that instaed of shooting for the cap, then focusing elsewhere, maybe we should treat +Hit like boomkins treat crit -- Get it as it comes, but don't look for it (ie, don't take a downgrade simply because it has enough +hit to cap you)
And honestly, I'm not even saying that, I'm not supporting any single position. The main reason I'm even posting here is because I think its an interesting discussion worth discussing -- But a majority of the replies have been of the "Hey OP, STFU and GTFO, you're an idiot" variety, which are completely useless. I'm trying to get as many facts as I can from the data here and interject my own as I see the opportunity...
This reminds me so much of the old days in TBC when warriors would treat you like a fool because you didn't have +16 stamina gems in every slot (Or because you thought Badge of Tenacity was the shizzle). The reasons we didn't do that were entirely based in math, and were entirely accurate and true in most situations -- and they worked. But that didn't stop EVERY retarded warrior out there from saying "Alls I know is, even if you have 95% dodge, if you only have 8k life you're a horrible tank" -- Its the sort of reply that adds absolutely nothing to the topic at hand, reveals lack of respect for the model / math used to draw the conclusion, and is generally useless to everyone involved.
Edit: Rant added.
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