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Debate: Do the ends justify the means?
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Post by
ASHelmy
sometimes youll just be stuck, unable to truly decide whether a choice was "for the greater good".
a common hypothetical situation that is brought up is this:
a train is coming and 10 people are stuck on the track in front of it, you foresee this before it happens and have a lever that can change its course to another track which will kill only person who is on the second track.
would you change the track and save 10 lives while condemning 1 man who would not have died if not for your decision?
can you stand by and watch 10 people get killed while this 1 man remains unscathed?
No, I would kill that man. That is if there is was absolutely no way to stop the train.
Post by
150866
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skyfire
What do you mean by "should it"? We can't just make a concrete set of rules to blindly follow
Why not? And who said anything about doing so blindly? Why aren't there a set of rules to follow?
Post by
Skyfire
I think its just that people love the idea of sacrifice, but rarely if ever want to be the one actually doing the sacrificing.
I think you bring up a good point; that humans are selfish in the general case (but not the extraordinary!). So then, what should change?
Post by
ASHelmy
What do you mean by "should it"? We can't just make a concrete set of rules to blindly follow
Why not? And who said anything about doing so blindly? Why aren't there a set of rules to follow?
How can you say that all who murder are wrong? and how can you say that all who steal are wrong? A set of rules is necessary, yes, but only if the people enforce it know when it's fair to use those rules/laws or not...
Post by
TheMediator
sometimes youll just be stuck, unable to truly decide whether a choice was "for the greater good".
a common hypothetical situation that is brought up is this:
a train is coming and 10 people are stuck on the track in front of it, you foresee this before it happens and have a lever that can change its course to another track which will kill only person who is on the second track.
would you change the track and save 10 lives while condemning 1 man who would not have died if not for your decision?
can you stand by and watch 10 people get killed while this 1 man remains unscathed?
If you look at it from a deontological perspective, not acting is the only way to treat every person as an end. By acting, you are not treating the person as an end, but merely rationalizing your action because of potential consequences.
Its not between Action A and Action B, its between Action A and doing nothing.
(I follow a more utilitarian perspective, and I would throw the switch, but for the sake of argument, I'm simply explaining the other side)
Post by
Skyfire
How can you say that all who murder are wrong? and how can you say that all who steal are wrong? A set of rules is necessary, yes, but only if the people enforce it know when it's fair to use those rules/laws or not...
How are murder and theft not unequivocally wrong? Who should enforce such rules? How can it be ensured that the enforcers enforce them fairly?
Post by
164232
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Post by
Skyfire
One persons version of just, may be very different to the next person...ie: one mans justifiable homocide, is some ones cold blooded murder...
Why should the morality of the means be justified by subjectivity? Isn't that dangerous, for the mind and soul?
Post by
164232
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211590
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307081
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182246
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135207
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180491
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Post by
ShadowSerpent
Ok-
If the governement could kill a man, who had no family, friends or living connections to mourn him, to harvest his organs to save 5 other people,
is this justifiable?
Sorry but I have to be a term nazi here.
Everything is justifiable. As long as the person trying to justify it has enough intelligence and charisma to persuade you that it was really necessary. So it really isn't the correct term here.
Is it fair? Depends on how the man feels. If he wanted to die anyway, why should it matter? Everybody got what they want. If he wants to live, I don't think anyone has the right to decide for him as long as he is still aware of his ego (the self, read moar pyscho stuffs ;-) and his environment.
Post by
ASHelmy
How can you say that all who murder are wrong? and how can you say that all who steal are wrong? A set of rules is necessary, yes, but only if the people enforce it know when it's fair to use those rules/laws or not...
How are murder and theft not unequivocally wrong? Who should enforce such rules? How can it be ensured that the enforcers enforce them fairly?
Ok, Lets assume that the set of rules is very fair and just. How should enforce them? Someone who knows the rules by hearts, and understands them, he must be smart I guess, and
extremely
honest. Almost anyone with those things can be trusted to enforce the rules, how can we sure that he won't make mistakes? We can't, we just pick the person who is less likely to make them.
Murder and theft can be right in many cases (well, not really that many). Examples: Theft is ok if you are doing it to stop yourself from dying. Killing is ok, when it is used to punish criminals or whatever (those are just
examples
let's not start a debate about whether killing for punishment is ok or not)
Post by
mudfish
But that's not the kind of answer I'm looking for.
Take war as a means to
anything
. Can war be justified?
Ofc! I want world peace! /wave
O.o
Post by
ArgentSun
I am going to make sure this doesn't just die. Expect a response soon...
My short stance on this is "yes".
Post by
340646
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