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Weekly Debate #1.1: File Sharing
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Post by
85162
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
TheMediator
MyTie, your arguments got progressively more and more childish as the thread went on, which caused you to lose much credibility in my eyes.
And the many times you "summarized a shakey argument" really didn't help you.
TheMediator, you took things to an extreme, far beyond what anyone else was doing.
A beautiful example is the first sentence of this post.
Shadowserpent wouldn't mind if I cut him open and stole 5% of his spine would he?
Taking 5% of a part of a person's body is far, FAR different from reducing a person's income by 5%, and I'm surprised nobody called you out on this.
The fact that you would try to use that in a serious argument sickens me.
And if you disagree with the price of music, how about instead of illegally downloading it, you stop listening to it? Otherwise you're just being a greedy little *!@#$%bag. I'm sure that buying a CD costs less than 5% of your income, so paying for it shouldn't hurt you following your logic.
Shadowserpent never said that losing 5% of his income wouldn't hurt him, just that he wouldn't be especially angry.
Also, I noticed that the anti-file sharing people fell back on ad hominem arguments much more than the pro-file sharing people (or the pro-file sharing people were much more subtle about it), which doesn't speak well of the steadiness of their arguments.
What it says is, we're arguing something and they don't understand what we're saying, when they're just spouting the same crap, so it has to be rephrased to get it in their heads. That's why I use such extreme examples, so you understand what it means and say "Yes, that makes sense". I'm not trying to defend a point of view, because I already know its right, I'm trying to make others understand that their thinking is wrong.
BTW I love how you are trying to play the "secretly biased but tries to appear neutral" observer.
Post by
85162
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
TheMediator
rationalization- to invent plausible explanations for acts, opinions, etc., that are actually based on other causes: He tried to prove that he was not at fault, but he was obviously rationalizing.
Trying to rationalize why stealing is acceptable doesn't make it not stealing. Sure, they may say to themselves that they had whatever reason for stealing, but trying to call it something other than stealing is just ridiculous. This is a situation where you can clearly draw a line and say that it is what it is. Whether or not you feel alright about what you did is one thing, but that doesn't change what it is.
Post by
ShadowSerpent
The most funny thing to me is that he doesn't seem to understand I'm also against downloading music. xD
It's just that I also hate the big record industries. I don't have a problem with the small ones (and their cd's usually cost somewhere around 10 euros, while the big&rich corporations let you pay 30... xD)
edit: posted too late, insert this post one higher then it actually is
Post by
57943
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
TheMediator
Any way you look at it, its stealing. Yes, it may be wrong how much they charge, but when you download music illegally... its stealing. Like I said earlier, if you really want to show them how you feel, don't listen to their music. Dance around the issue all you like, either you're paying for the music, you're not listening to the music, or you're stealing it.
Post by
ShadowSerpent
I can afford it, and if I like it it's worth the price. Then again, I'm lucky my musical taste lies mostly in undergound genres so I'd sooner encounter the cheaper cds. I also buy bandshirts, posters and go to alot of concerts, so they won't have to worry about losing cash from me.
It's just this whole "OMFG we lost less then 5% of our profits this year make it stop at this rate we won't have any profit over about one million years" attitude of the big record companies that makes me sick.
And yes mediator, I agree with you that it's stealing. My part about breaking the law should've made that obvious to you, but apparently you got too enraged by then (or something like that) to actually read up to that part.
Post by
Skyfire
No, the biggest reason to call stealing musician's money stealing is that its stealing. If you're taking something without paying for it, that's stealing. It has NOTHING to do with them not having it anymore, it has to do with you having it without having paid for it. You just don't get it, and that's why this is pointless.
I'm pretty sure you're the one here who doesn't get it. For one, calm the *!@# down. If you don't want to rephrase yourself endlessly, end your involvement in the thread. For two, my view was legitimate and a compromise of both your view and theirs. I said "yes, it is stealing, but your reason is not the reason, I think". Stolen opportunity costs the creator of such opportunity often as much as physical thievery.
Your name leaves much to be desired in this case. Take a chill pill.
Post by
TheMediator
For two, my view was legitimate and a compromise of both your view and theirs
Second person in this thread to pull the "I'm neutral but really not" in this thread. If you feel one way or the other, say it, but this whole "I'm neutral lol" thing is silly.
Post by
Skyfire
Second person in this thread to pull the "I'm neutral but really not" in this thread. If you feel one way or the other, say it, but this whole "I'm neutral lol" thing is silly.
As I just noted, you have no interest in mediating. I nowhere stated I was neutral, because taking a middle view != neutrality. There's a reason why this thread is 9 pages: morally, this is grey ground, and if you can't accept at least that much, you'll need to find somewhere else to argue your point. Black and white, this topic is not.
Post by
307081
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
TheMediator
Second person in this thread to pull the "I'm neutral but really not" in this thread. If you feel one way or the other, say it, but this whole "I'm neutral lol" thing is silly.
As I just noted, you have no interest in mediating. I nowhere stated I was neutral, because taking a middle view != neutrality. There's a reason why this thread is 9 pages: morally, this is grey ground, and if you can't accept at least that much, you'll need to find somewhere else to argue your point. Black and white, this topic is not.
You're right, I have no interest mediating at this point, because this has become pretty silly. Whether or not stealing is right in this case might be a gray area, but whether its stealing... well it is stealing.
Post by
307081
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skyfire
Whether or not stealing is right in this case might be a gray area, but whether its stealing... well it is stealing.
You're still arguing with me, as if you don't accept that there is grey ground. It may fit the definition of stealing,
you and others
may think it's stealing, but to some people, it's
not
. Get on with life, and try to convince the ones who think within the grey field, because those are your most likely converts.
Post by
TheMediator
Whether or not stealing is right in this case might be a gray area, but whether its stealing... well it is stealing.
You're still arguing with me, as if you don't accept that there is grey ground. It may fit the definition of stealing,
you and others
may think it's stealing, but to some people, it's
not
. Get on with life, and try to convince the ones who think within the grey field, because those are your most likely converts.
Some people may think 2+2 = 5 but that doesn't mean there's a gray area, it just means there's a right area and a wrong area. Some people just have a hard time wrapping their head around stealing something intangible.
Post by
Kurx
I'm just going to leave this here...
I went through a phase of my life where I had no disposable income, at all. I had internet sorted, and I chose to pay for WoW, but that's it. I certainly couldn't afford music.
Of course, I turned to filesharing for some stuff to listen to, to pass the time while I was working at my university degree. I downloaded music from some bands, one of which is now my favourite band. Some of the music I've kept, some was terrible and was deleted soon after it was downloaded.
Does this make me a bad person? No. Because after I left university, I paid the musicians back. I went on iTunes and bought all the (decent) music I'd downloaded (as long as there were DRM free versions available), and got rid of the stuff I'd got from BitTorrent.
For me, filesharing was my own way of a) taking out a sort of loan and b) assessing the quality of a product before I bought it.
I've also downloaded music after listening to it on YouTube.
Yes, I know the vast majority of people who download stuff illegally just want something for nothing, meaning my post is really quite pointless. But remember there's a grey area to a lot of laws, and I don't believe I'm a criminal for what I did, despite what the law and the various zealous recording companies say.
Post by
TheMediator
I went through a phase of my life where I had no disposable income, at all. I had internet sorted, and I chose to pay for WoW, but that's it. I certainly couldn't afford music.
And the point about being a poor student, if you don't have a lot of money you're supposed to have to make choices about what you can or can't get, saying that you should be able to get what you want... well you're just trying to justify stealing.
Quoting myself. People really just have the attitude that if they want something, they should get it without having to give up something else.
I don't believe I'm a criminal for what I did,
And I quote myself...
Trying to rationalize why stealing is acceptable doesn't make it not stealing.
Like I've said, you can argue whether or not you should feel bad, but it doesn't change what you did.
Post by
197766
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Post by
276825
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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