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Is Bloodsurge worth the 3/3?
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Post by
Sakkura
lol... you're stating I don't know what I'm talking about despite the fact you've never seen me play and you've never tried this spec for yourself.
Which is stupid.
---
Slam does weapon damage +250, Heroic Strike does weapon damage +495. Heroic Strike will always do more damage, almost twice as much extra damage. Slam isn't a "few thousand damage compared to 495". That shows a basic lack of knowledge on how the abilities work.
Also, I'm not spending 30-40 rage (dunno where you got that figure!) as the flat Heroic Strike is 12 rage when talented, returns 10 rage when it crits due to Glyph meaning it costs 2 Rage at times, compared to the flat 15 of Slam.
I don't need to see you to tell you that 2 + 2 does not equal 17. Likewise, I don't need to see you play WoW to tell you that your understanding of how WoW works is deeply and fatally flawed.
Slam is a special attack that does weapon damage plus 250. Heroic strike is an on-next-attack special attack that consumes your next autoattack and modifies it, adding threat and 495 damage (as well as reducing the chance to miss somewhat). Weapon damage plus 250 is a lot more than weapon damage plus 495 minus weapon damage. Well, unless your weapon damage is less than 245...
The fact that heroic strike consumes your next autoattack means that you lose the rage that autoattack would otherwise have granted. Thus the rage cost of heroic strike is the advertised 15, minus any talent discounts, minus 10 when glyphed and critting, plus what your regular main hand autoattack would have generated. For a level 80 titan grip warrior, this would typically put the average rage cost of heroic strike somewhere very roughly in the neighborhood of 40 rage. The rage cost will scale upwards with attack power and armor penetration, but downwards with crit chance if you have the glyph.
So like I said before: Slam does far more damage than heroic strike, at a far lower rage cost.
Post by
Sakkura
I don't think that's quite right.
Heroic Strike
is based off of melee damage, where as
Slam
is based off of weapon damage. What's the difference, you ask? Easy. Say I have a weapon that does 500-1000 (for simplicity) and enough ap to make my char sheet say 1000-1500 for melee damage. HS will hit for 1000-1500 + 495, where as Slam will hit for 500-1000 +250. HS should ALWAYS hit higher.
The difference is whats on your weapon tool tip, and whats on your character sheet.
The confusion is understandable, because Blizzard always have and always will horribly suck at designing tooltips. Melee damage and weapon damage means the same thing in those two tooltips. Both autoattacks (heroic strike-consumed or not) and slams have their damage increased by attack power.
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Post by
Sakkura
Take a 3.4 speed weapon, hit a target with HS, five times in a row, then hit it with slam 5 times in a row.....I can pretty much guarantee you 5 HS's will do more dmg than 5 slams in a row. Weapon dmg + 495> Weapon Dmg + 250.....
And "Reduce the chance to miss somewhat" if you have 164 hit rating, HS dosen't miss AT ALL..(neither does Slam)
Your understanding of the game mechanics is as flawed as Tubey's. I have tried to explain this more than once, but I guess a little repetition can't hurt:
Heroic strike
consumes an autoattack that would have happened anyway
. Slam does nothing of the sort. Hence you cannot include the majority of the damage that a heroic strike does in your calculation, because that damage would have happened anyway, if you had not pressed any buttons at all.
The real comparison would be between five heroic strikes and five slams plus five autoattacks. I can guarantee you that the latter will do far more damage. The only reason you don't spam slam all the time is because it normally has a cast time and pauses your autoattacks. When bloodsurge procs, you get around those problems, in such a way that the instant slam is in every way shape and form vastly superior to a heroic strike.
As for reducing the chance to miss somewhat, the base chance (before talents and gear) for a non-miss autoattack when dual-wielding is 72% while the base chance for a non-miss heroic strike or slam is 92%. Better yes, but not crazy better. Besides which, many titan grip warriors will be over the soft cap on hit, thus reducing the relative miss deficiency of autoattacks. Heroic strike and slam work the same way when it comes to the chance to miss, the same way as basically any other special attack (or yellow damage in other words).
Post by
78077
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Post by
Sakkura
Clarifying Bloodsurge:
With 40% crit unbuffed, the old Bloodsurge...
Gave you a
50% chance
on average every 5 seconds of proccing an Instant Slam.
With 40% crit unbuffed, the new Bloodsurge...
Gives you a
20-30% chance
on average every 5 seconds of proccing an Instant Slam
Can't you see how the new Bloodsurge penalises high gear?
Now, Heroic Strike
With 40% crit unbuffed, Heroic Strike (glyphed)...
Gives you a 50% chance on average of returning 10 Rage, 100% chance of causing simultaneous offhand white damage
Can't you see how Heroic Strike in the place of Bloodsurge (even when used twice as much) REWARDS high gear?
Again, your facts are off and lead you into really bad theorycraft decisions. You can ask me to go try it all you want, but how about you go do things the right way and learn the rotation and theory behind it properly before trying to reinvent the wheel? I'm not saying bloodsurge is a fantastic talent nor that it is absolutely necessarily the best talent to pick up with the last few points, but I am saying that your case for skipping it is hanging by a thread.
With a 50% buffed crit chance, bloodsurge would indeed have a 50% chance to proc every 5 seconds with the old mechanic.
However, your second set of numbers is wrong. The new bloodsurge works off any hit from heroic strike, bloodthirst and whirlwind. Assuming one heroic strike every TEN seconds (that's extremely rare, you will likely have the rage to do it much more often), you have two 20% chances for a bloodsurge proc every 5 seconds. Assuming you are at least at the soft cap for hit and expertise, that means a total 4% chance of two procs and a 60% chance of one proc. When your rage generation goes up and you heroic strike more often, it will just go up even further.
With a 50% buffed crit chance, heroic strike will return an average of 5 rage with the glyph. That 5 rage can be subtracted from the overall 40+ rage cost, bringing it down to an average in the mid-30s. That's still way more expensive than slam. And it still does less damage. I have no idea what you mean by the 100% chance for offhand white damage with heroic strike, it has no effect on offhand autoattacks, with or without glyphs.
Now, you are right that the heroic strike glyph does give you a bigger average rage discount the higher your crit chance gets. But first of all, the discount can never exceed or even reach 10 rage. Second of all, you forget that as your attack power goes up, the intrinsic rage cost of heroic strike goes up - so if you gear up in a regular fashion, the best you can hope for is that the glyph gets you back to square one.
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78077
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Post by
Sakkura
Sigh. Fine, be that way. After all, we sure wouldn't want to settle things with mere facts. I just hope people who are unsure of how to spec read this thread with an open but critical mind.
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