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WTB - A challenging Heroic 5-man.
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Post by
Fwibbles
I have run most of the heroics now (on a shaman, usually enhc, but sometimes ele.) and have come to the conclusion that folks who mainly play 5-man content are screwed if they want something remotely hard. People who remember that BC pre-nerf heroics had some instances that were notoriously hard (far harder than the rewards justified, heroic durnholde anyone?) are probably going to be even more demoralized, because even with ~t4 gear, heroics did not forgive errors easily.
From what I am seeing, even harder heroics are facerolls. All pulls are all-aoe. Bosses can, with exceptions, still be tank-n-spanked without understanding specific fight mechanics. Even the gimmick achievements for heroic 5-mans are somewhat easy (and completely unrewarded).
Seriously, what is a player who in bc mainly ran heroics to do for what at the minimum might present a marginally challenging instance run which requires some brain use? I
find it vastly harder now to solo BC heroics
(on shaman) than any
thing wotlk has offered.
and you do heroics with a group.
*Failbus Crashes into you*
go raid.
Post by
Jeremypwnz
I have a feeling that Blizzard will make instances in IceCrown, not the raid but instances. They will have really strong pulls that WILL require CC. Some mobs won't have an aggro table and just randomly target ranged or casters. One boss with constantly shoot out _____Bolt Volleys doing 5k dmg(10k on Heroic) every 6 seconds. IDK just ideas. Basically, 2 times harder than MgT USED to be.
Post by
MrFredII
And remember, the loot from TBC heroics were in between blues from normal instances and the stuff from Karazhan; you were meant to do heroics
before
Karazhan and later raids.
Not really true. Getting revered with all the different groups to get access to every heroic was much more demanding than the Kara attunement quests. My memory is a bit hazy but I believe that the Kara attunements could be completed at normal difficulty. Everyone I did tBC endgame with shortly after release were in Kara long before we had completed all the heroic attunements. Had Blizzard intended that we do the all heroics first its attunement would have required it. The later raid attunements required us to complete other raids more than heroics.
In my opinion, in a mix of dungeon blues and Kara purples the tougher heroics were in many ways more difficult to clear than Kara. This was true even early on when Kara was tuned to its highest degree of difficulty.
However I fully agree with your point that the tBC heroics were much tougher than anything in Wrath especially when tackled in quest and dungeon blues.
Post by
dtothen
When heroics were announced, they were intended to be a way for the hardcore raiders to run 5-mans without getting extremely bored during the day when the rest of their guild were at work or school or something.
As far as I understand, in BC atleast, heroics were supposed to be 5-man raid-difficulty instances, rather than today where raids are 10-man normal instances.
Post by
Sakkura
And remember, the loot from TBC heroics were in between blues from normal instances and the stuff from Karazhan; you were meant to do heroics
before
Karazhan and later raids.
Not really true. Getting revered with all the different groups to get access to every heroic was much more demanding than the Kara attunement quests. My memory is a bit hazy but I believe that the Kara attunements could be completed at normal difficulty. Everyone I did tBC endgame with shortly after release were in Kara long before we had completed all the heroic attunements. Had Blizzard intended that we do the all heroics first its attunement would have required it. The later raid attunements required us to complete other raids more than heroics.
In my opinion, in a mix of dungeon blues and Kara purples the tougher heroics were in many ways more difficult to clear than Kara. This was true even early on when Kara was tuned to its highest degree of difficulty.
However I fully agree with your point that the tBC heroics were much tougher than anything in Wrath especially when tackled in quest and dungeon blues.
Most or all of the attunements required heroic runs. I know for certain that is the case for summoning Nightbane and for the SSC attunement, as well as the later attunements. So you might do a bit of early Karazhan before the heroics, but you probably weren't really intended to. The quality of items seems to confirm this - all heroic gear (with the exception of badge rewards, especially those added in later content patches) was significantly lower quality than Karazhan drops.
I never said Karazhan was harder than the TBC heroics in appropriate gear. I think I agree with your point of view there.
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328780
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123609
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Post by
MrFredII
Honestly, this is a rather strange arguement. People claim they want a challenge. Then why is it that, back in tBC, finding groups from H Shatt Halls, or SVaults, or SLab, or Seth Halls was so difficult? No one wanted to do these places. I tried for over a month to pug a group for H SLabs, to absolutely no avail. My guildies weren't interested, and I couldn't find anyone in LFG that would go either. Why? Because SLabs was hard. Very, very hard. Murmer was especially difficult on heroic mode. Kargath in SHalls was a beast on heroic. The Ravenguards in Sethekk were some of the most deadly trash I'd ever seen. Might as well have qualified these guys as minibosses, because they hit like mac trucks, and were CC immune.
Essentially you are saying that your guildies and the pugs that you could find were only interested in cakewalk badge vending instances. I have no doubt that was your experience, however a sizable minority or the player base has a different view, especially if there are rewards that reflect the difficulty. Those of us who feel that way have no desire to shut off badge vending machines, we would just like a challenge here and there, preferably ones that reward success in proportion.
Post by
Sakkura
Honestly, this is a rather strange arguement. People claim they want a challenge. Then why is it that, back in tBC, finding groups from H Shatt Halls, or SVaults, or SLab, or Seth Halls was so difficult? No one wanted to do these places. I tried for over a month to pug a group for H SLabs, to absolutely no avail. My guildies weren't interested, and I couldn't find anyone in LFG that would go either. Why?
Because pugs suck. Pugs don't do hard stuff, but some guilds do. It's not often pugs do Sartharion 3D (or even 2D), but does that mean it never happens, or that nobody wants that challenge? No, it means the players who want that extra challenge want to face it with skilled people in a long-term raid group.
Post by
lazu
Heroic Azjol-Nerub. Hadronox died of the mobs hitting him.
Post by
dumac
well it is the start time really of blizz, so you cannot expect so much in this heroic. made a list of blizz start heroics for TBC and wotlk and how many.
utgarde keep
utgarde pinacle
Azjol-nerub
Old kingdom
Gundrak
Draktharon
Nexus
Occulus
Hall of stone
Hall of lighting
Violet hold
sum: 11
Durnholde
Blackmorass
Slave pen
Underbog
Steam vault
Ramparts
Blood furnace
Shattered halls
Aucidoun crypts
Mana tombs
Setthek halls
Shadow labs
Botanica
Mechanar
Arcatraz
sum: 14
Not counting the Magister terrace bcs it was added in sunwell patch not in start entrance.
So even if it would not be perfect to that it was before i think blizzard have in store for 1 or 2 more heroics to satisfy players, they wanted some extra content added with patching probarly instead of giving all away.
My 2 cents are in scholar bazin and icecrown there is room for instance portals to be added. Scholar for the titan control parts and could consist of wildlife and humanoids like the oracles controlling it.
Icecrown is kinda given due to icecrown citadell:)
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Post by
MrFredII
Huh. Seems to me, I said essentially what YOU said. Only you decided to insult my guild in the process. H SLabs was exceptionally difficult. Murmur hit like nothing else in the heroic world. It required very capable DPS, with a strong healer, and people that understood how to move to get it done. Yet the rewards really weren't all that
impressive
. The gear just wasn't worth the expenditure of effort. Thus, Heroic SLabs just didn't get done all that often. Maybe for bragging rights, and occassionally by a group looking to test themselves against some high difficulty 5 mans. But that's about it.
H MgT, on the other hand, got tons of attention, because it's
loot table
was beautiful. Heck, even the normal mode dropped epics.
I meant no insult to your guild, but that seemed to be what you were saying.
See my point? The harder instances just WEREN'T done in tBC. Not on any kind of frequent basis. The why being that the difficulty wasn't being matched with equal rewards. Now, I can agree to seeing hard modes used to make bosses more difficult in 5 mans, and offering better loot if done that way (maybe every boss drops an epic if done on hard mode?), but without making the gear absolutely smexy in every way (IE ilvl 200-213 in a 5 man), it just isn't gonna attract any attention. Why should blizz developers waste their time if only a very small percentage of the population would even use the content?
While we would have liked better rewards for the effort, we did the the harder 5 mans in tBC and more than once or twice. While it was possible to get true pugs for these, it was more difficult and usually I was successful only with guildies, because true pugs (5 random people) usually weren't up to the difficulty level.
That is the essence of my point. Rather than solely producing badge (emblem) farms which require virtually no effort, there is a sizable minority of people who would like a challenge.
Edited to add:
Basically, what people want is a difficult encounter to test their skills, that also offers decent/significant rewards. That's not what people are asking for, however. What they're asking for is difficult. The difficult stuff just didn't get done, and Blizzard recognized this. Finding groups for even H Arc, H SVaults, H Seth Halls, or H Shat Halls was difficult. Groups for H SLabs was nearly impossible. Even the best players I knew didn't want to do these. These were all difficult, where people actually had to try to succeed. If you want mini-raids (like H MgT), then say so. But don't give me this "I want more difficulty" garbage unless you're willing to add in the caveat that this difficulty needs to be rewarded with significantly better gear than the other heroics give.
I completely agree with the concept that harder content should provide better rewards. Certainly that would make it much easier to get groups. I actually would prefer that the increased reward not be accomplished by an "extra hard" mode. Instead I would prefer that the instance is simply more demanding. While I would prefer that the gear for the harder 5 man be better, if that is the reason we don't have one (which I kind of doubt), then I'll take comparable gear to the EZ instances.
Roughly 11 million people play WoW. I would bet that unlike raiding the vast majority of them run 5 man content. Even if only 15% would enjoy hard 5 man content enough to run it without a significant gear increase that is still a lot of people.
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