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Skribs' PvP DK Handbook
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Post by
258751
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Post by
CDNEH
Skribs,
Awesome Guide!
In "Unholy section" you have the links to With AMZ and Without backwards.
Post by
249884
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Post by
skribs
Go ahead, Nhox.
A lot of people look at SS and Oblit and see SS as only useful against plate wearers. Consider, however, that Ebon Plaguebringer gives SS an extra 13% damage, and that it crits 30% harder thanks to vicious strikes. Against clothies, OB *may* be better than SS, but I don't see it as worth the talent investment (a lot of classes with less armor have talents that reduce physical damage, anyway, unless they were made into more static damage reduction since I last checked). Which is more powerful between the two comes down to more factors than just their damage and the armor of the target, it's also the other talents you have.
As to the build provided by Tzunamii, if you want to buff Oblit's crit, why not go down into frost for Rime and Guile of Gorefiend? An extra 15% crit chance and 45% crit damage down there. Those are what make oblit powerful, not the 9% crit from subversion and 3% overall crit on annihilation.
There are 2 problems with the blood builds being argued: 1) they assume they do higher damage than everyone else, 2) they assume the PvE concept of burst.
If blood REALLY did pump out so much more DPS that that rotation would pwn any frost or unholy DK, blood would be *the* DPS tree, but as it stands all 3 are capable. Even then, if you list a 20 second rotation, that isn't burst - that's just a rotation that any spec (regarding to the 20 second timer, not the specific rotation) will repeat.
As such, while burst damage in PvE may be 10-20 second time periods where you need to burst through a shield or an add, or use trinkets (most of which have a 15 or 20 second duration), that is because fights last 5-10 minutes in PvE. In PvP (unless there's a holy pally vs. a kiter or healer) fights should be a lot less. Burst damage is not going to measured in terms of damage done in 20 seconds, but rather that done within a few GCD's (for example, one of the best combos is the magi shatter combo, which is designed around getting 2 crits virtually simultaneously). They also assume you will have full ToT to get off that rotation (in which you wont get all your attacks in before runes are off CD if you don't) and they assume you are not using your runes for utility, both of which are PvE principles.
Like I said above - in theory, blood works. In practice, if you have 100% ToT, chances are the fight was not won because of your spec, but because the other player AND you just stood there trading blows, in which case the fight is reduced down to gear and rotations.
EDIT: CDNEH, I checked on your comment, and they're correct (*jedi wave* don't look at the bottom of that post where it says "last editted").
Post by
dronne25
Great post. A lot of previously under-performing death knights are going to have you to thank when they start beating the rest of us down.
My only comment -
One thing I really think you need to add to the presence section - you're underestimating the value of having a 1-sec GCD on ALL abilities. This alone makes Unholy presence better in the VAST majority of PvP situations. You yourself said it -
" Burst damage is not going to measured in terms of damage done in 20 seconds, but rather that done within a few GCD's"
DKs obviously have a ton of instants and their main limiting factor is the GCD. With unholy, in the same small window (about three or four seconds ToT) you can get out one extra instant. 15% on two strikes is not going to make up a third strike. Its even more important when you realize that having the chance at another attack is also much better because you might miss/get parried or dodged.
Further, this is only from a damage standpoint. Lets say you need to strangulate someone, but you just got off a scourge strike. You can get the strangulate off half a second faster, AND get back to doing what you're doing that much quicker as well afterwards.
Basically in an environment where ToT is the same, you are going to be able to get off a lot more strikes and get more overall utility through your other abilities while maintaining your damage because our all-instant nature is constrained the most by the GCD.
There might be some scenarios where blood presence turns out to be better - example - you're running a cleave team in 3s or especially in 5s - and you have someone else to keep the target perma-snared. But in any situation where your ToT is limited, and your team is counting on your ability to interrupt/silence etc. in addition to dealing damage (read: this is most situations), unholy is going to carry the day.
Other thoughts -
- CoI glyph is really nice for your frost build idea if you're going to skip IT talents, that way you can still get in some damage with your CoI frost fever applications.
- Night of the Dead is more important than you mention, especially for arenas - pet survivability is way down right now from where it was at 70 (even with the ghoul-buffing talents). He is going to get ripped apart early and this talent really gives you a chance to get him back up for the match. Furthermore, it also lets you explode your ghoul/deathpact him for some extra burst or some healing and get him back fast. Finally, its also really convenient to have for running a lot of BGs back to back.
- IBF glyph is probably the best one we have, its extra useful against rogues etc. but having an on-demand 50% damage reduction is fantastic, especially if you're being kited or blown-up from afar and can't get in range fast enough to generate the RP to use it (if you didn't glyph it). This is at least until it gets nerfed.
- MoB is just fantastic - I know you said it was good, but I think if you're going 18 pts as unholy, it should be required to go in 21 for MoB. (i'd probably stick with 18/53 as frost though). Reasons: its a rogue-neutralizer - it can't be cloaked. Same with a feral druid and their fast attack speed (there's no cooldown right now on the healing procs). Also, be creative with it, its incredibly useful. Example: if you put it on the hunter, they might realize its up and try to kite. They might not realize you slapped it on their fast-attacking pet that is now healing your brains out.
That's all. great job.
Post by
62146
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Post by
259957
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
skribs
Gdub, I didn't dismiss the frost/unholy sub-spec, rather I said that if you are subbing into unholy, the decisions made in each tier wouldn't be different from the main spec, except how far you are going into the tree. The difference between the blood and unholy sub-spec is that unholy offers more utility, while blood offers more damage and survivability.
Dronne, while it is true that the lowered GCD lets you get in extra attacks, you have to consider what extra attacks you are getting. Assuming an unholy build, for example, you might IT (at range, so not compared) - PS - SS - BS - BS. So going from 2-3 or from 3-4 attacks gives just an extra BS, which is the weakest attack. So you're trading 15% of an SS for 1 BS. While yes it's still more overall damage, the initial damage done by the first 2 strikes is less. It depends largely on the situation as well - if you're only on target for a half a second, BP will pump out more. For a few seconds, UP will. If you maintain 100% ToT for whatever reason (say you got a warrior partner who is spamstringing) then BP will then do more. That's why I said they're all good, and it depends on both your playstyle, your group makeup, and your opponent (as well as your spec) as to which you would want to use.
Also, if you get into fights where you end up having to play the caster because the opponent kites you so well (0% ToT), then BP makes your few attacks hit harder. I will take what you said into consideration, however I don't believe that UP is that much better than the other 2 that it deserves the status of *the* PvP presence at this point.
- CoI glyph is really nice for your frost build idea if you're going to skip IT talents, that way you can still get in some damage with your CoI frost fever applications.
Yes it is, but like you can see, there are 4-5 glyphs that would be very good (and I listed CoI in them). Therefore you may put CoI as mandatory in one build, but it may be crap in another.
- Night of the Dead is more important than you mention, especially for arenas - pet survivability is way down right now from where it was at 70 (even with the ghoul-buffing talents). He is going to get ripped apart early and this talent really gives you a chance to get him back up for the match. Furthermore, it also lets you explode your ghoul/deathpact him for some extra burst or some healing and get him back fast. Finally, its also really convenient to have for running a lot of BGs back to back.
I didn't say that NotD isn't important, what I said is that compared with the other talents that you can get at that point - those being CF+EP, bone shield, and SS; it falls behind in terms of necessity. Sort of how Rage of Rivendare - a GREAT increase to damage, becomes optional due to the effects of toughness and/or veteran of the third war, which offer different - but still very good - benefits. If people do focus your pet a lot, this will be important, but I believe the others are more helpful against most opponents.
- IBF glyph is probably the best one we have, its extra useful against rogues etc. but having an on-demand 50% damage reduction is fantastic, especially if you're being kited or blown-up from afar and can't get in range fast enough to generate the RP to use it (if you didn't glyph it). This is at least until it gets nerfed.
Same as I said above - there are 4-5 glyphs that would be good, so it's hard to make one mandatory. IBF is nice, but if you glyph IT you can easily generate the RP from range, and it gives you more RP to use when you DONT need IBF (figure if you use IT 3x, but IBF once in a 1-minute period, you generate 10 more RP by glyphing IT). It's not a simple "this is best" when you have to factor in utility, playstyle, and group makeup.
- MoB is just fantastic - I know you said it was good, but I think if you're going 18 pts as unholy, it should be required to go in 21 for MoB. (i'd probably stick with 18/53 as frost though). Reasons: its a rogue-neutralizer - it can't be cloaked. Same with a feral druid and their fast attack speed (there's no cooldown right now on the healing procs). Also, be creative with it, its incredibly useful. Example: if you put it on the hunter, they might realize its up and try to kite. They might not realize you slapped it on their fast-attacking pet that is now healing your brains out.
Part of the thing with MoB is, like some other talents (say, AMZ) it's only *really* helpful against a few classes. In
this build
, you pick up a lot of the optional talents in unholy, barely leaving room for IRT, let alone shaving off 3 points into MoB. A lot of the time, once you get to higher-tier talents (or high tier for an off-spec) the talents that are actually really powerful get shadowed by equally-powerful talents, or talents that's power depends on situation.
Post by
skribs
After doing some thinking, I did add some information to the sections on NotD, Unholy Aura, and presences, however I pretty much maintained my original conclusion.
Post by
Kurtosis
...
Death Rune Mastery is pretty much a crap talent, as it provides more
blood
runes, which you don’t particularly need in the other specs (although it would be great in a blood-main build, but like I mentioned above, I’m not covering that).
...
Did you mean
Death runes
there?
Thanks for taking the time to write this, Skribs.
Mods, sticky please?
Post by
skribs
I meant blood runes. It provides more use for blood rune abilities, as those death runes will probably be used for either FU abilities (thus negating the change and not worth the investment) or blood abilities (which is how you gain blood runes).
Post by
Kurtosis
However, after reviewing the EJ post mentioned earlier, it showed that impurity is a bigger DPS increase (and it focused on single target damage, i.e. boss damage) than necrosis, and that assumed 100% ToT. When ToT drops, and thus auto-attack,
necrosis
is better...
Did you mean "...Impurity is better..." here?
(Just helping edit, hope you don't mind)
Post by
Kurtosis
I meant blood runes. It provides more use for blood rune abilities, as those death runes will probably be used for either FU abilities (thus negating the change and not worth the investment) or blood abilities (which is how you gain blood runes).
Ah, got it. The wording threw me off.
Post by
248043
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
skribs
For a frost, it's okay. It will probably activate AFTER your oblit though, so your powerful attacks aren't gonna benefit until later. Although in melee groups it could be nice.
Good catch kurtosis, although it just proves you have no life :)
(although I'm one to say it, /sigh)
Post by
Kurtosis
Good catch kurtosis, although it just proves you have no life :)
(although I'm one to say it, /sigh)
Rofl, I'm just bored at work and much more interested in your writeup. I figure if someone takes the time to write a wow guide longer than any paper they've ever written for school, the least I can do is read it all. :D
Post by
Kurtosis
Reported for a sticky.
Fyi, to anyone else who doesn't know how to do this, the 'Report' link in the top right corner of every post has several options, one of which is Sticky Request. I didn't realize till I saw Shirash's comment.
Post by
dronne25
I still think you're missing my point about unholy presence - your response only mentioned the damage. I specifically said it was not about the damage. But even if it was - take your example - say we get a 4500 crit scourge strike. 15% extra is 675 damage. There is no way that the 15% of a scourge strike and a plague strike are going to outweigh the damage a blood strike can do, even if you get crits and you dont crit the blood strike. Furthermore, blood strike is a worst case scenario - what if you already have your diseases up and have enough runes to SS twice? what if you blood tap (which is off GCD) or ERW (also off GCD)? Then you can get in an extra SS, which will really start to add up. Or what if you get in, instead of the extra attack, a strangulate to block a heal that would have gone off otherwise and healed up for way more than your extra 15% damage took out?
The only time blood would be better would be almost 100% time on target that is perma-snared. When is this going to happen in an arena match? People are going to realize that its tougher to focus a Dk then a lot of other classes, so that means you're going to get hit with the CC train a lot while they go after your partners. In a PvE environment, sure, you have 100% time on target and have a much longer time, so if you get your rotation in blood presence PERFECT you can do more damage than somone running unholy.
Even if you have someone perma-snared though, you're not going to get anywhere near 100% time on target - you're going to spending alot of time, even with our defensive cooldowns, snared, feared, stunned, rooted, sheeped, trapped, or disoriented. Blood presence is going to give you greater sustained damage in a controlled environment - precisely what we do not want in an arena environment (look at warriors pre-wotlk - people raid on fury warriors but they bite for arenas compared to the bursty, less damaging MS arms spec). Unholy lets you dump your damage quickly - creating a much bigger burst, and gives you the extra, precious time to use the GCD for other things like interrupting, snaring, etc. I'm going to quote the point made by Jones over on arenajunkies, in a conversation in which i did not participate but which i fully agree with (they all agreed that unholy beats blood):
"the biggest factor in holding back a top pvp player is GCD, that goes for every class.
Hand-eye cordination / reaction times and quick choices are what will bring a player over another as far as skill goes ( this can be said for just about any game ).
The fact that I am able to use unholy presence in pvp means I can make quicker choices and have a faster reaction time over someone in blood presence. I am capable of doing more damage in burst or using another ability that is restricted by GCD .5 seconds faster then a person in blood presence.
There will never be a point where blood presence is a better choice in a PvP situation, unless haste starts effecting our GCD." ( end quote)
I can link the discussion if you would find it useful.
I am not sure what argument that can be made for blood presence in ARENA PvP outside of occasional use in larger bracket cleave team, if teams decided to let your death knight just run around un-cced all game. Maybe in BGs you'll see some bigger numbers with blood, but I'm not really addressing the general BG PvP experience with these posts.
As for NoTD, who isn't going to focus your pet? That right there is 3 stuns a minute, usable as interrupts, as anti-kiting, a way to keep healers in combat, and decent, annoying damage. Who isn't going to focus him when he can be gibbed by a double DPS team in 3-4 GCDs? He has no resilience and low life, yet he is a huge part of an Unholy DK's strategy. Like I said, pet survivability at 80 is MUCH worse than it was at 70. Its a no-brainer to gib the ghoul. If you don't have NoTD, unless you're playing something like healer/DK and have a long match, you're not getting your ghoul again (5 min. CD), and that really hurts.
IBF - its not that easy to get the RP for this - say you're playing 2s against a ret/rogue - rogue cheap shots you, you trinket, get hit with a hammer of justice before you have time to get off the moves you'd need to get 20 RP. You could pop ERW I guess, but thats about it. Otherwise, you eat two stuns, and then probably a blind, whereas if you had IBF you could trinket the cheapshot, pop IBF, and avoid the HoJ or the upcoming Kidney shot. If you don't have it, your teammate is probably dead or severely hurting by the time you get out of the blind, at which point if you'd blown your trinket, you'll probably be hit with repent. Also, its not just useful for the stun resistance, so it isn't only for use in that respect. The 50% damage resistance is usable for the same reason - say they pull the CC chain off on your partner and focus you. The same goes if they decide to make you the focus target in larger brackets. Having glyphed IBF and AMS, for one, is something that makes DKs such bad focus targets in the first place - but if they manage to get on you and sit on you - which is going to be entirely possible in s5 as just like s1 there won't be as much resil./stam. on people as there was in for instance, s4 - you're going to be hard-pressed to generate the RP fast enough to make a difference, besides blowing ERW.
How is MoB not "really" helpful against all classes? It might be truly OP against rogues or druids that have quick, less overall damaging attacks, but EVERY class does damage. Warlocks/Shadow priests DoTs do a lot of damage frequently as well. ANY damage - hit a druid for instance with thorns up and bam, healing for 4% of your total health. Mark of Blood is really helpful against all classes, just more incredibly helpful against a special few. Point being, MoB allows you to throw it up (especially against say a 2-dps team) and greatly ignore that target for 20 seconds. Its great in any small-scale situation (like any arena battle). I see it as being a fantastic way to avoid getting gibbed by double dps teams in 2v2 or cleave teams. Its really easy to fit in an unholy build, even if you still take AMZ, so i'm not sure what you're talking about there:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j
. just drop points from dirge or impurity, whichever of those you have (I'd take them from dirge) and out of RoR. That kind of utility > 3 points in RoR anyway.
It just occured to me actually that a large part of our disagreement might be the fact that I am looking at this from an arena perspective. I've gotten gladiator titles on two different classes, so I have a lot of experience and play time against high-level, intelligent players, so a lot of my suggestions/theory crafting come from that experience. To me that is what is meant by PvP - sure battlegrounds are involved, but if you want the best rewards/titles/gear then you have to arena.
If you're not talking about arena at all, then no NoTD is not essential its only conveinent for summoning your ghouls faster after deaths in BGs. But if you're playing against anyone semi-competent your pet is going to get gibbed in arena plain and simple and that makes NoTD necessary in that context.
Same with IBF glyph - you might not *need* it for general PvP purposes - you'll never have the teamwork in a BG to totally lock someone down to the point where they could not generate 20 RP in time to do something productive with it. In arenas, especially against heavy CC comps like ret/rogue, ret/mage etc., this is a legitimate concern.
Same for MoB - in big fights at the flag maybe slapping MoB on someone is not as big a deal. But in the small scale, tight quarters, and time limits on an arena match, MoB becomes so much more powerful.
Regardless, I hope that my more arena-centric perspective can at least be helpful and thought-provoking to this discussion.
Cheers.
Post by
209338
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
wildrooster27
Spec into frost 13 pts to max out annihilation you get 100% chance to not consume the diseases with the strike, and a 3% crit chance increase to your special melee abilities. Now you can add it to your rotation.
Doubt me? find anywhere in any spec where you can get 40+% DPS increase from spec for thirteen points.
Now put this in an unholy rotation where you get three, instead of two diseases and its just plain nasty.(i didn't want to say unfair, cause then it to will feel the nerf bug : P)
But then unholy looses all of them sexy blood talents... bladed armor and dark conviction. Doing more dmg with disease and higher crit beats out wasting points to buff 1 spell that Scourge Strike whips the #$%^ out of.
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