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[3.3] Intro to Death Knight Tanking
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Post by
Nystali
Hi, im lvl80 DK i love Frost DW Tanking for heroics & raids, but in new parch Blood Tank he looks better... so I should change my build or continue with my build?
And where I recommend to put the left points?
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0xZGxetIcbobo0ssx0x
or AoE blood tank 2h :(
Sorry for my bad english
Ok, while blood tank is far more viable come the next patch, I don't think anyone can say it looks better than frost or unholy just yet. There is still a great lack of mitigation and avoidance talents in the blood tree (no +chance for mobs to miss from dreadplate, no +reduced damage from bone armor). Also, while they are getting a nice cleave, that still doesn't beat Howling Blast and Unholy Blight for added aoe tanking in conjuction with DnD. As far as I can tell, you can really say there is "AoE blood tank 2h" potential in the blood tree.
But again, blood tanking is being made to be more viable and if you really want to give it a try, you should do it. I just think front and unholy are better suited for it.
As for your talents:
5/57/7
if you are going to Dual Wield, I'd prefer Frost Aura over Acclimation if you were only going to take one of them and then you do want Epidemic in order to go one full rotation of 2-3 straight Howling Blasts (once it comes off cooldown in next patch) in conjuction with Blood of the North giving you the Death Runes to do it with. Still two points left to put into acclimation, or bladed armor.
Post by
Nystali
Here's a question. At level 80, and when i've finally achieved 540 defense, how much *unbuffed* dodge/parry/armor/hp should i be looking at?
Thanks.
EDIT: This is a broad question, so Heroics, 10-Man, and 25-Man answers could work, just state for which so i don't get confused.
Best I can offer is to create that macro I posted to see what avoidance number you are currently at (with Blade Barrier up). As I said, its probably unlikely you'll get to 102.4 avoidance without block, but the closer you can get to it, the better you are at avoiding damage.
Would be great if some of the DKs currently tanking heroics and raids can give us their numbers or armories so we can check out their percentages.
Post by
146010
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Afoxi
So realistically i should try to aim for 40% avoidance minus blade barrier before trying to tank Heroics? Sounds like a goal here, might be doable since I actually prefer using Swordshattering (with Spellshattering as a backup) rather than the new Stoneskin Gargoyle.
Of course, that's *if* i can get 540 without the Gargoyle...
Post by
146010
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
146010
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gynsu666
This is the basic Build I have been tanking with and seems to do great Any advice is welcomed.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jbEMoMhIoZ0xZbg0I0soxeooco
I like the more stable amount of time your mitigation runs with IF and BS versus the full frost tank. I specced a bit deeper into the blood tree then some might for a few reasons. Now granted at 80 and in raids/heroics you should have extremely competant healers....BUT we all know what happens when you pug and or healers are drunk or just having a bad day lol so...
I took rune tap for the added party heal and also the Mark of blood as quasi mitigation uses. Tough boss the mark effectively lessens the boss damage output by 4% per hit over 20 seconds. The rune tap popping off every 40 seconds heals myself and the party. Granted it is not a ton and shouldn't be needed but every bit does help and the effect of a potion every 40 seconds along with a pot cooldown in case of a bad pull can be lifesavers.
I tweaked this a bit from the build i took to 80 to include the anti magic zone. Previously I had desacrated ground and no AM. I never quite felt the loss of it but I figured as a full tank I should use every tool available to help myself and my raid stay alive. Yes 3 min cool downs but its a boss tool which really is the only thing we have toruble with right?
I built this around the use of Blood Strike (Bloody Strikes, Reaping) which is the only major change as before I used scourge strike. My only concern is that my threat generation is up to par for solid ae aggro.
Any comments?
Post by
Nystali
Allright guys, I'm looking for some opinions on a frost tanking build after the patch hits.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0xZGxxthcbohRVosx0g0hx
I just read the latest changes, and Necrosis looks quite strong for single target now. With howling blast's cooldown removed, I don't see a point to having Morbidity.
Does anyone have feedback to offer for this, though? Chill of the Grave is effectively 1 point filler, and 1 point 'I don't know what else to put this in to'. I guess I could put it into Shadow of Death, might make more sense?
Thanks for any constructive criticism, I don't have much experience with frost yet.
Can't really find anything wrong with it. An alternative to Chill of the Grave would be one point in Deathchill which you can use as an opening threat builder (IT->PS->Pest->Deathchill->Crit Howling Blast) and then putting the other point in shadow of death. I think Chill of the Grave is a talent that gets most of its strength from also having Runic Power Mastery so I would generally take both or neither.
As for necrosis, I really have no idea about that. Normally I wouldn't bother buffing white damage, but you might want to get a damage meter and run a few dungeons before and after Necrosis and see what the increase in damage would be. Overall, I think its still more of a DW talent.
If Necrosis is found to be lacking, maybe move those 5 points into Viscous Strikes for added crit (frost loves crit), and then either Virulence or Outbreak (I think I'd lean towards outbreak).
And yea, I think morbidity would be wasted talent points in frost.
Post by
Nystali
This is the basic Build I have been tanking with and seems to do great Any advice is welcomed.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jbEMoMhIoZ0xZbg0I0soxeooco
I like the more stable amount of time your mitigation runs with IF and BS versus the full frost tank. I specced a bit deeper into the blood tree then some might for a few reasons. Now granted at 80 and in raids/heroics you should have extremely competant healers....BUT we all know what happens when you pug and or healers are drunk or just having a bad day lol so...
I took rune tap for the added party heal and also the Mark of blood as quasi mitigation uses. Tough boss the mark effectively lessens the boss damage output by 4% per hit over 20 seconds. The rune tap popping off every 40 seconds heals myself and the party. Granted it is not a ton and shouldn't be needed but every bit does help and the effect of a potion every 40 seconds along with a pot cooldown in case of a bad pull can be lifesavers.
I tweaked this a bit from the build i took to 80 to include the anti magic zone. Previously I had desacrated ground and no AM. I never quite felt the loss of it but I figured as a full tank I should use every tool available to help myself and my raid stay alive. Yes 3 min cool downs but its a boss tool which really is the only thing we have toruble with right?
I built this around the use of Blood Strike (Bloody Strikes, Reaping) which is the only major change as before I used scourge strike. My only concern is that my threat generation is up to par for solid ae aggro.
Any comments?
You know, as a healer first, I'd really have a problem if my tank were more worried about and specced for popping an extra heal on the group or themselves instead of putting out the max amount of threat that they can.
What I specifically mean by that is that you're only method of aoe is BB, Pest, and DnD. You don't have the new cleave from the coming patch in blood, you don't have howling blast from frost, and you don't have unholy blight from unholy. I suppose you can dump runic power with Death Coil and Rune Strikes, but I'd feel I was gimping myself without other options.
At least you get a lot of buffed stamina from the build. But when I see people reach for the second stamina talent, I kinda sit back and say, "Funny how your hybrid build requires both of them to be viable while my full frost/unholy build need neither/one."
That said, if it works for you, it works. At the very least you have bone shield working for you (I'm suprised they have both stamina talents accessible with bone shield).
Post by
Nystali
You know, every time someone asks about a Blood tanking spec I end up bashing it a bit and I hate myself for it. I really do think Blood can tank. I really do. I guess there is something in me that is anti-half and half specs which many blood tanking trees seem to be (heck the spec I was looking over in my previous post was more unholy than blood anyways). If you are finding you have success with those types of builds then all the power to you. I just don't have the guts to try it out.
Post by
Celairia
I'm still leveling presently, but I've been having a wonderful time tanking blood -- it really is a different sort of feeling. The trick there is you have to remember that you're also healer for yourself, to some degree -- you have to have your DS and your blood tap (I can't imagine a blood tank build without, though the glyph is wasting a slot IMO) ready to go whenever you need them -- I never Obliterate, for instance, only DS. I use the standard opening (D&D->IT->PS->Pest) and from there you pretty much play it by ear, staying as close to a standard DPS rotation as possible (though substituting Pest for HS (that may change come 3.0.8 with the HS buff, I'll have to experiment.))
It really isn't like tanking as any other spec or class... I do take a sick joy in confusing the healers as to why my health keeps jumping back to full/almost full before their casts are done, though. That is a drawback of Blood I'm finding -- lots of overhealing from your healers occur. I'm not sure if that's something I'm doing or something that the heals needs to keep track/be aware of.
Post by
146010
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
280537
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Nystali
Again, no expert on blood here, but I think you're missing out on Bloodworms, 5/5 bladed armor, and 3/3 Will of the Necropolis all for having the extra 2% stamina out of unholy.
Will is something you should definitely have filled out if you are blood tank.
Bloodworms just to add to all the self healing you should be doing.
Bladed armor is not needed, but don't see why you shouldn't just max it out.
Stamina is great as a tank, but lets not forget you are looking at a lot of gear that will give you a lot of stamina. If you spec requires you to have that extra 2% health, rethink it as that could be points you put into mitigation (will of the necroplis) or extra threat generation (bladed armor) or extra healing as blood (bloodworms).
Post by
146010
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Setters
All I gotta say is this guide has been really helpful.
Not only do I not make a complete fool of myself while tanking, my group can complete it successfully without any wipes.
Post by
280537
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gynsu666
Nystali, you bashed yet did not take the time to look into the build and in fact added that you didn't have the guts to try it. Well to begin with...
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jbEMochcZ0xcZ0ghIxooxeoo0o
A duel wield variation of my build I saw a person using the other night who actually tanks 25 man naxx :)
Mine is built around the 2h as I don't have good enough 1h'ers yet. that and 2h add more tps at this time when not using a KM proc based build.
Now you scoffed at Rune Tap yet it, like icy fort or bone shield has a purpose. 6-7k heals every 30 seconds free with an ae glyph that heals the party for 1-2.5k each...that in a 5 man adds to around 10-17k free health every 30 seconds. This also helps to ensure your Blood runes are on cool down at all times for your added parry. I have specced almost every build listed as top builds and have found each of them lacking personally, but they are all good builds. My only concern was threat generation and after talking with the guy who was tanking 25 naxx I am very happy with the outcome :)
I do thank you for your follow up post but that doesn't change the fact that if your going to comment on builds you should at least try them so you can comment appropriately. I would also make a suggestion to people to try builds out in mixed company. Your raid healers are experienced veterns in the art of fixing up screwed up situations and on many occasion their awesomeness covers up the holes in alot of peoples gear/builds lol. Try your builds out in pugs with average joes so when your with a weak healer/group you get a feel for where you need the most help.
Post by
Gynsu666
Alright that said and done... here is the build I am running 2h. It ofc like anything else is work in progress. If I feel it is not cutting the mustard I will go back to the drawning board and work on it. Anything can be tweaked to make it better just need to work at it.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jbEMocbIZ0xZbghI0ooteooco
Comments are always appreciated even the bashes have their place :) Just don't try and change it to something completely different lol, it has been proven that it works for high end raids. Invaluable in pugs as well lol.
Post by
Nystali
I did look over the spec and my concern from before still stands. Even with the coming patch changes, you do not have any aoe threat building from the standard DnD, BB, and Pest. If you're going to rely solely on DnD for your group threat building, then you really might want to spec in morbidity. Most trash pulls should be dealt with by the time your first DnD is done but I'm thinking more along the lines of boss/gauntlet pulls (Skadi in UP, first boss in AN, history lesson in HoS for example). Without extra aoe threat generation outside of DnD (again, you don't have the coming cleave in blood, no HB, and no unholy blight) those fights are made more difficult than they have to be. Before WotLK I would not have had any second thoughts about this. But since CC has gone the way of the dodo and DPS likes to see how much aoe they can do to try and top out the DPS chart (in PUGs especially), I am worried about a tank's ability to maintain top aggro on everything. By strictly relying on Pest and BB while DnD is on cooldown, I think you'd be walking a very fine line on keeping all threat.
If your aoe threat isn't up to par, then its a damn good thing you have glyphed rune tap there to toss out that heal for everyone. Although I'm sure all your dps and the healer are still gonna be @#$%ed that they're getting beat on. That's my concern, but if you've got a good rotation that prevents this from happening, I'd love for you to share it so others interested in trying out a similar spec have something to go by.
I'm curious as to how you find more traditional specs lacking in threat generation? Is it their single target threat gen or aoe threat gen? As I mentioned above, I'd like to see what rotation you use with the spec that you currently listed.
Also, your DW 25-man Naxx tank friend there has an interesting spec choice with 2H Specialization AND Nerves of Cold Steel. He should probably make up his mind which he wants to use and stop wasting either 2 points if he's DWing, or 3 points if he's using a 2hander. Does he main tank, or is he mainly DPS and jump in there as a 3rd or 4th tank when needed? I'll get shouted at for saying this, but the DPS first and tank when needed is the role I envision for blood in raids.
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