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10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
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Impale for protection
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Post by
chocolatebuddha
@Chocolatebuddha:
What what what? You don't use imp thunder clap? You saying that imp thunder clap isn't worth finding three points for makes me question just how much you've tanked, and how often you got two shot because of other bad choices, be it gear, positioning, a many number of things. There's a lot you can tell about someone when certain statements/comments are made, and my friend I think you need to seriously reevaluate your tanking rotation, because I can hold over 2k TPS with
only
Shield Slam, if not more. Threat is
not
a concern of mine whatsoever, I can out threat any dpser in the game, with little effort, my focus before 3.0 was all the threat I could squeeze in while still being healable. In WLK I focus entirely on defensive stats. I suggest you RTFM.
@Sakkura:
Tactical Mastery is not worthless talent choice for a prot warrior at all. Show of hands, how many of you warriors have ever pulled a ton of mobs, shockwaved them all, swapped to battle, activated retaliation then hit defensive again with enough rage for a thunderclap? Probably not many. How about using intercept to stun a mob long enough for a healer to get a heal off? I can think of many reasons why tactical mastery can be skipped, but I certainly wouldn't say it's a "lol" talent like improved rend used to be.
I have a feeling you have not read all of my posts. I have never been two shotted and I never even in my first post said it wasnt worth finding the 3 points to spend into it, it was that I didnt see the 3 points that could possibly be moved to spend in it, and in my last post I found the points in Gag Order, so please next time you post questioning my ability to tank, atleast read all of what I have said instead of skimming over everything.
Of course you can hold 2k TPS with shield slam alone, every warrior in this post can, unless they are using some lvl 60 shield or something. In a normal situation I can spit out 4-5k TPS without focusing on what I am doing, but as I said earlier, and I guess maybe you just have yet to have DPSers that really hit the high numbers, they are starting to creep up on the threat. That being said I have never ever and will never lose a single target tank to any DPSes threat, they are not that close, and I cannot imagine them ever getting that close. So if I am healable, and take minimal damage without having to refresh thunderclap and demo shout why not dish out more dps? Again in a previous post I made I said that the bosses in the current level of content are pansies, they do NOT hit that hard, and I am sure in the future patches that bring Ulduar in, my spec will change to mitigate more damage, but as of right now, I will take the extra crit of Impale.
If you are having trouble taking damage and running your healers out of mana too soon, then perhaps it is you that should take a look at what you are doing.
Atleast you are correct about Tactical Mastery
Post by
chocolatebuddha
Ooooor how about this?
Vigilance?
Really how often have you found Vigilance to be nesc?
Since Impale and Cruelty in effect I think dropping one point in cruelty for Impale actually leads to a higher TPS and DPS.
Post by
Sakkura
I didnt think about dropping Gag Order for the additional points into Thunderclap, and thats what I would do, but if this is your argument then all prot warriors should spend points deeper into the Fury tree for Imp Demo shout, because its mitigation has a greater effect.
I don't
need
to give up thunderclap to keep aggro on the average raid boss, my argument is that I don't
need
to use thunderclap to mitigate the pathetic damage these bosses deal. Like it or not the current content bosses are pansies. Also I know my rotation like I know the back of my hand, and as the dpsers start catching up in gear with tanks you will find it alot closer (albeit not as close as it used to be) then you think in threat.
All in all you are arguing a point that I agreed with from the get go I just didnt see the talents to drop to get Imp Thunder, now I do and those points lie within Gag Order (although Gag Order is a very sad loss :( )
I'm not suggesting you drop gag order because that talent is very powerful. Shield slam typically does about a quarter of your damage, so you are definitely getting more than 1% damage per point, which is better than eg. cruelty even if you disregard the side effect of gag order (because most raid mobs will be immune to the effect or simply won't be casters anyway).
Going for imp demo shout would actually be a good idea if it wasn't for the fact that there will usually be other people better suited for taking that talent. For example the fury warriors who will be going all the way down the fury tree anyway - they give up less than a prot warrior does by going for the talent.
It's true that current bosses aren't nearly as wipalicious as Sunwell Plateau bosses were, particularly before 3.0. But I still maintain that threat has been simplified a lot
more
than survivability has. You can still see tanks dying, but people overaggroing is really rare even if they turn off their threat meter and nuke insanely. So I would suggest that a tank at the moment should generally value survivability over threat, though not disregard threat completely (especially not because threat now also means DPS, and a few hundred more DPS from a tank is just as good as a few hundred more DPS from a DPSer). In any case, picking up the most powerful survivability talents would actually free you to focus your gear more on threat/DPS without making yourself vulnerable to dying all the time.
So I would suggest that, painful and illogical as it is, giving up ~3 points in cruelty would be the best way to get impale. But I do think that it won't be as "gimping" as it used to be if you decide to spec differently; 3.0 talent setups seem to be much more variable and left to individual preference to a greater degree than before. And that's a good thing really.
Post by
Sakkura
Ooooor how about this?
Vigilance?
Really how often have you found Vigilance to be nesc?
Since Impale and Cruelty in effect I think dropping one point in cruelty for Impale actually leads to a higher TPS and DPS.
3% less damage taken for one of your other tanks for one talent point. Worth it I would say. Also can be helpful for AoE tanking which is the one area where people still seem to have a chance of overaggroing if they try hard enough. At least until they nerf volley :P
Post by
marklartank
The theorycraft has already shown that deep wounds should be a mediocre talent for raid tanks. However, bleed buffs and AoE tanking as you mentioned may make it useful in some situations.
which tests show it to be mediocre? the wws reports i have seen show DW at 10-12% of overall damage, coming in just behind devastate.
and that's on single target fights - quite impressive to me. hopefully, i'm going to get a chance to try it out in naxx this week myself.
Post by
Sakkura
which tests show it to be mediocre? the wws reports i have seen show DW at 10-12% of overall damage, coming in just behind devastate.
and that's on single target fights - quite impressive to me. hopefully, i'm going to get a chance to try it out in naxx this week myself.
Remember that you are losing 3-10 talent points elsewhere to get deep wounds. Those would have given a lot of DPS too, or survivability depending on how you set it up. Math has clearly shown that slow weapons are out until you get to insane AP numbers, and with a fast weapon DW is not hugely hot (though the faster attacks do proc it more often and keep the gap smaller than you might think).
WWSs I have seen of DW in actual raids seem kinda meh, at least the ones that are worth a damn (i have seen a WWS of DW at near 10% damage, but that had like 8 normal swings per heroic strike on patchwerk... so that's /ignore). Not worth giving up survivability for anyhow, since threat is not much of an issue on most bosses. And it seems very difficult to make a build with it without giving up survivability (or synergy).
Post by
marklartank
actually fast weapons are showing to be surprisingly good because...deep wound procs stack!
finding the points to spare is the tricky part - it would probably require giving up focused rage, which may or may not be an issue. and you will have to sacrifice some points in cruelty in order to keep max mitigation talents.
so it really comes down to deep wounds vs. cruelty and which you think will give you better returns. with raid buffs, i think my crit will be high enough on my specials to make deep wounds more valuable, even with 0/5 cruelty.
i'm not saying for sure it's the way to go, but i am certainly going to experiment with it.
Post by
33153
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Sakkura
It's not a straight deep wounds vs. cruelty decision, because you have to give up other stuff as well. Otherwise deep wounds would be an easy pick since it is significantly better. It's more of a choice between steady rage and mitigation from the prot tree with cruelty as a filler vs. a lot more crit damage and some meh rage bonuses (mainly cheaper heroic strikes, though imp charge will help you open up a bit quicker on the pull).
You either have to cut deep in your prot talents or almost completely abandon the fury tree (where AttT is probably still better than cruelty even with deep wounds and impale).
Post by
Sakkura
actually fast weapons are showing to be surprisingly good because...deep wound procs stack!
I'm pretty sure that's wrong, DW procs only refresh the dot. They don't stack (as in double or triple up).
I finally went impale after respeccing arms for a bit and i don't really notice much of a difference... my dps was actually lower than normal but i'm chalking that up to some lag i had tonight. More tests will be required.
They do stack. 3.0 changed deep wounds from an overwriting debuff to a rolling debuff, like ignites used to be. For that reason, fast weapons are fairly close to slow weapons for single-target deep wounds DPS, while slow weapons win by a very large margin on AoE. The fast weapons simply generate more crits with lower damage for each, though the more instant attacks (especially multitarget) are used the more a slow weapon pulls ahead.
Post by
marklartank
all mitigation talents + deep wounds
here
. what i'm giving up is rage cost reduction (which improved HS + glyph of HS help with a bit) and cruelty.
Post by
78077
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
309676
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Sakkura
Hm. I see alot of people claiming a 10-12% base crit. How exactly do you get 10% without cruelty?
~5% base crit plus 5% crit from feral druid / fury warrior, plus more crit from various other buffs (blessing of kings, horn of winter etc.). Those raid buffs are so common you can assume they will always be there.
Post by
marklartank
which falls below the minimum 25% you need to place Impale on par with cruelty
also, you now have to add in the effect of deep wounds, which was not considered in the original impale vs. cruelty discussions.
deep wounds for me accounts for a ~7% damage increase on single target tanking (it's much higher on multi-mob tanking). that alone is more than i would get from 3% more crit from cruelty. tanks that are geared enough to use dps trinkets can push DW to ~12%.
Post by
Cloud8690
This
is the spec I'm currently using with Impale and Deep Wounds. I find it works very nice. No rage problems. Less points in
Shield Specialization
doesn't make to much of a difference. At least not that I've seen. Have had no problem being kept alive in raids. And certainly no problem keeping threat.
Post by
226267
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Post by
245261
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Post by
DeathsApprentice
My current spec,
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LVMh0fZhbZVItrM0zidIzsGo
My personal preference, not to use Toughness.
I find that right now, especially since dual spec isn't out yet
Deep Wounds is an Extremely useful talent for Naax, particularly Loatheb.
(10-man)
Because my group has a Prot Pally that I run with all the time, I never directly tank Loatheb.
(Prot Pally has 1500unbuffed block value with an average of nearly 60% block chance)
He is 100x more suited for tanking a 2k per swing mob than I am. XD
I put on dps gear and let rip using a
Angry Dread
mainhand and my
Red Sword of Courage
offhand
I push nearly 3.5k dps with my prot spec.
Of that, nearly 50% is Deep Wounds, due to the white crits from my off-hand, 300dmg crit, extending my 6k deep wounds ticks, I push incredible damage as prot in that fight.
However, Loatheb aside, I tank with a higher overall damage taken comparison. All the healers I've tanked for, that the Prot pally has tanked for, have told me how much easier it is to heal me.
This likely being that I have nearly 26.5%(give or take) unbuffed dodge, with 20.5% unbuffed parry and 24.5% unbuffed block chance(950 block value). (I realize these aren't all directly related to spec, but I know tanks that drop points in
Anticipation
just to keep Toughness)
On boss fights, other than Grobbulus which I just can't see anyone liking their dps on him, I average at least 1500 - 1800dps. (Just under 2k on Patchwerk)
I don't have as much armor as other tanks, I know that... But I don't see that much of a difference in my damage taken. In all the 10-mans my guild has done where we downed KT, our off-tank was either laggy, or pre-occupied. I have never had to tank "just" KT on the last stretch. I always tank KT and the Adds, and the healers keep me up easily until about 12 - 15 stacks of Blood Tap. The one 25-man(special invite *I refuse to pug 25-man naax, waste of time IMO*) I was in, the KT main tank died, and I ended up tanking 3 of the 4 adds. I was only in range of two MAYBE three of the healers....
I admit, I'm not a main-tank for Sarth 25-man with 3 drakes... And I never will be. That fight is just not made for a prot warrior in that position. Because such, I don't believe I need 30k, or even 28k hp unbuffed. I find it nearly repulsive to put a 24-stam gem in my gear, but if it's in a blue slot, it's okay. I would never put a 24-stam gem in a red socket though. 240hp isn't very much compared to bosses hitting for 10k like Sapph and Patchwerk(at least in 25-man). Unless that 240hp is going to put me over a 10k boundary, it isn't worth it.
Ooooor how about this? Vigilance? Really how often have you found Vigilance to be nesc?
Since Impale and Cruelty in effect I think dropping one point in cruelty for Impale actually leads to a higher TPS and DPS.
You obviously haven't had to tank for a very skilled, well-geared, fury warrior. Even with 3k shockwave crits and 1k thunder clap crits on a group of only 4 mobs... The one mob that I don't at least devastate/shieldslam/concussionblow once... Will ALWAYS turn. Because of the way fury warriors work. They don't have as much decrease in their base threat output as most other classes, and they hit harder than most, at least until 3.1. One whirlwind from them pushes more threat than a shockwave crit and a thunder clap crit.. Because a good Fury warrior can dish out about 10k damage to every mob in a 4-mob group. Vigilance makes it possible to keep that aggro off the warrior. It may not seem like much, but with characters that repeatedly push 3k+ in 5-mans... Vigilance is a god-send.
I find that Deep Wounds, except on Loatheb, produces around 6% of my dps overall in trash/boss pulls.
Imp Spell Reflect is one of those abilities that I see as a potential wipe prevention. It isn't good to depend on it, in fact, NEVER depend on it. But if there comes a time when there is NOTHING you can do to stop that next spell cast, (dps all pre-occupied, shield-bash on cooldown, stuns on cooldowns, spell reflect on cd or immune) that 4% chance to miss from spells is all you have left. I know several situations where I saw a boss's spell say Miss when it could've been a very bad situation. KT, uninterrupted frostbolts that missed, 10k dmg right there.
I realize that most of the things I've pointed out are extremely situation based, but sometimes... that's what you need. I find my spec extremely useful for all the raids I've done.
PS I have not completed Malygos, my guild, with the exception of the fury warrior, doesn't push enough dps to down Maly. (Darn enrage timers)
I just wish I could replace my Heroes gear with Valorous so I can replace my legs with Valorous legs without needing to regem for defense. @.@
If you want to check out my character, my WowArmory page is
Heliokami
Post by
233683
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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