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Paladin Tanking question
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Post by
43387
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
zoomie
First of all just becuase we use warrior weapons doesn't mean we use warrior abilities that reduce armor.
Second, our threat comes from holy damage. You can have a mob with 840 armor, or a mob with 100,000 armor and proc executioner on both and the threat from your holy damage is going to be the same every time. You get 90% more threat from holy damage with righteous fury, so who cares what your white damage is.
As far as you talking about spell damage, heres this from another thread.
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=31935
Avengers shield
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=27173
Concecration
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=27139
Holy wrath (How many noticed this is instant cast now, and stuns?)
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=27138
Exorcism
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=27180
Hammer of wrath
Does anyone know why I linked all of those abilities? Mouse over them and look at the values. You will see that they scale equally with spell power AND attack power.
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=31801
Seal of vengeance is a little bit different. The seal itself, attack power scales twice as good as spell power. But judging it, Spell power is slightly better.
Just take a look and see how for most of our abilities, they scale equally with AP and SP, and in some cases they scale better. So strength is our #1 threat talent now. With divine strength, 1 strength is 2.3 attack power. Add kings and it is 2.5 attack power. So a +20 strength enchant is either 46 or 50 attack power. Basically, its easily better than 40 spell damage, or even 43 spell damage.
In fact,
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=53592
is more of an off healing utility talent. It helps threat a little bit, but if you have strength on your gear the way you should, your AP should 3 or 4 times higher than SD, and that is the main source of your threat.
If you don't believe me about that talent being used for utility more than tanking, look at the ret version
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=53503
. It is mainly utility, but helps prot/ret just a little bit.
And after reading this, if you still think executioner is the main threat enchant for a pally, just go ahead and delete your toon. I don't want %^&*!@#s like you making the rest of us look bad. I don't want to get denied a group because the group already had a paladin tank that couldn't push out any threat.
Post by
242110
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
zoomie
The reason dps weapons such as
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34609
and
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33388
are now viable tanking weapons is because #1 they have high weapon dps, making it good for hammer of righteousness. #2 they both have attack power which is pure threat.
Now you can assume that just because we can use a dps weapon as a tanking weapon that everything about dps applies. But that isn't true. It is simply based on weapon dps, and attack power. That is it, end of story.
A prot pally getting executioner on his tanking weapon is the same as a warrior getting +healing or +spell damage or +intellect on his tanking weapon. It does absolutely nothing.
Post by
slasher0161
I failed year 9 english and can't paramagraph
Clearly...
so now that the obvious has been pointed out i think we know what is better.
Post by
160231
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Blightman
omgthreat:
Potency > Executioner
Let's assume the tank build used is this:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZ0xVA0uGteIRhoxb
Potency benefits:
4.6
HOLY
damage from Avenger's Shield = 0.153 DPS = 0.29 TPS
2.02
HOLY
damage from Consecration = 0.25 DPS = 0.48 TPS
3.52
HOLY
damage from Holy Wrath = 0.118 DPS = 0.2224 TPS
7.59
HOLY
damage from Exorcism = 0.506 DPS = 0.96 TPS
7.59
HOLY
damage from Hammer of Wrath = 1.26 DPS = 2.4 TPS
37.95
HOLY
damage from Seal of Vengeance(full stack) = 2.53 DPS = 4.8 TPS
10.63
HOLY
damage from Judgments of vengeance(full stack) = 1.32 DPS( 1.06 without iJudgments) DPS = 2.52 TPS (2.02 without iJudgements)
3.6 damage per weapon swing to get DPS and TPS divide by the weapon speed. For a weapon speed of 2 would be 1.8 DPS/TPS
14.45
HOLY
damage per target from Hammer of the Righteous = 2.4 DPS per target = 4.577 TPS
AND 20 STR = 10 BV in Wotlk
In Wotlk,14.3
HOLY
damage done from
Shield of Righteousness
= 2.38 DPS = 4.53 TPS
Why did I bold
HOLY
and why are the TPS number higher than the DPS numbers? Because when Righteous Fury is activated(and if you are tanking it should be) all HOLY damage generates 90% more THREAT
Executioner benefits:
Weapon speed * Procs per minute(executioner has a PPM of 1) / 60 = with a weapon speed of 2 would be 3% chance per hit that executioner would proc. Unlike warriors we don't have a slew of abilities that add extra hits in fact I think Reckoning is about it for prot pallys. Some rough math with 3/5 reckoning gives about a 15% chance per minute to trigger Executioner.
Once triggered Executioner will provide about 5.6% DPS increase on WHITE damage for 15s. For every 100 DPS you normally have with your weapon, Executioner will add 6.16 DPS/TPS for 15s = 92.4
Jumble all that together and on average a pally will get about 13.86 TPS from Executioner
Summary
--------------
Enchant TPS(vs demon/Undead) TPS(vs other) Block Value
Potency(lvl70) 14.45/16.85 13.27/15.667 10
Potency(lvl71+) 18.98/21.38 17.8/20.197 10
Executioner(lvl70) 13.86 13.86 0
Executioner(lvl80) 6.93 6.93 0
Notes:
The 2nd number of potency is when the mob level drops low enough for hammer of wrath to be used
Potency at level 71+ will also benefit Shield of Righteousness
The amount of ArP needed at level 80 is almost 2x what is needed at 70 to get the same amount of damage increase.
Do you STILL think Executioner is worth it for pallys?
Post by
OscarDivine
aright guys this is a lost cause. He doesn't understand English or Math, so unless you guys are fluent in "I-ignore-other-ppl-and-grammar", I recommend we just stop trying to convince the troll and be done with it. He's changed his mind on every other post, and has talked himself in circles. It's over.
Post by
blademeld
Man, I had a great laugh reading this.
Tell you what, Executioner does make threat since you are buffing yourself and you are doing more white damage. It's like when a hunter enchants his weapons with potency, it increases his DPS.
Not significantly, but it does ;)
Post by
205382
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
blademeld
omgthreat:
Potency > Executioner
Let's assume the tank build used is this:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZ0xVA0uGteIRhoxb
Potency benefits:
Lest we forget, lolreckoning, doubt that most people will have reckoning in their spec.
hitting the refresh button every 3s to add some other bit of useless information. With your fingers in your ears screaming "wa, wa, not listening"
OMG 3 hands!
(couldn't resist)
Post by
Blightman
omgthreat:
Potency > Executioner
Let's assume the tank build used is this:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZ0xVA0uGteIRhoxb
Potency benefits:
Lest we forget, lolreckoning, doubt that most people will have reckoning in their spec.
I threw in reckoning:
to get deeper into the tree
no other talent would influence Potency or Executioner(BoK would but the assumption would be that BoS was used) while reckoning would
slightly
increases the TPS of Executioner.
And I would not be surprised to find that omgthreat DOES have reckoning in his build
Post by
138517
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
blademeld
Are we forgetting Seals of the Pure instead of Guarded by the Light in that case?
and 1/2 Imp Judgements would be better, no? Unless you plan to respec at 80 that is.
Also, I noted that you didn't factor in extra swings for Reckoning in Potency Caulcuation, And I'm almost certain there's a damage portion to full stack SoV hits, but I haven't paid too much attention to that lately, in fact I've been spamming Hammer of the Righteous and Consecration with disregards to judgements, seals and auto attack for 95% of my tanking in 3.0+
and yes, I'm certain that a certain someone here will be having 5/5 reckoning lol
Post by
138517
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Boeck
King's Defender (heroic Mech) geneates more threat than the Hammer of Judgement (Mount Hyjal). So yeah. Skip the spell power weapons.
Not disagreeing with you, but just so that newer people aren't confused:
King's Defender -> Kara
Sun Eater -> Heroic Mech
Post by
Blightman
Are we forgetting Seals of the Pure instead of Guarded by the Light in that case?
and 1/2 Imp Judgements would be better, no? Unless you plan to respec at 80 that is.
Also, I noted that you didn't factor in extra swings for Reckoning in Potency Caulcuation, And I'm almost certain there's a damage portion to full stack SoV hits, but I haven't paid too much attention to that lately, in fact I've been spamming Hammer of the Righteous and Consecration with disregards to judgements, seals and auto attack for 95% of my tanking in 3.0+
and yes, I'm certain that a certain someone here will be having 5/5 reckoning lol
The comparison I did was quick and dirty and designed to favor executioner as much as reasonably possible and still be talking about protection pallys. In doing so I left out some small TPS bumps to Potency. I posted the spec the assumptions where based on, so that when I multiplied the damage boost for Avenger's Shield by 1.3 due to Shield of the Templar or multiplied the damage for all the abilities by 1.1 due to 1-h spec, there would be no confusion as to where those multipliers came from.
If you want to do a full breakdown of the TPS possiblites and come up with a threat rocket tank build, please do and post it. I'm sure many of us would like to see it.
Post by
xaratherus
Regardless of whether or not executioner is a self buff it generates high threat.
Here's a link to the buff:
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=42976
See the part where is mentions high threat? No? There's your problem.
Actually, just to make it more clear:
Sunder Armor
Note that the spell specifies that it causes high threat. Executioner does not. Sunder Armor does not cause high threat simply because it ignores armor - it causes high threat because the spell is designed to generate a lot of threat inherently.
Executioner is a melee DPS enchant. It will increase a Paladin's threat through the fact that it will somewhat increase their white damage output - I don't think anyone's arguing that point. More damage equals more threat (in almost every case). What they are arguing is that there are more viable enchantments for Paladins who are looking to up their threat output.
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