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PVE Discipline Usage, Tips, & Tricks
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Post by
karlusdavius
Few things.
Since the patch, a tanks threat will be way more than we can ever generate, therefor i wont be taking anything in silent resolve. It's just not worth it. IDS is obsolete as many other buffs overwrite the spell damage. however it would be more viable for 5 mans, not so much 10 mans, and probably never in 25 mans. Its your preference if you wish to take the Divine Spirit buff. that's still viable.
from those 2 things alone you now have 3 more points to spend.
Reflective Shield is a pvp talent. and currently only effects the shield that you cast upon yourself. so i don't feel its worth thinking about as the dps it does is just nothing. id rather put the point elsewhere/
Pain Suppression is one of your "o !@#$" buttons. I personally will take it for times where the tank is gonna be taking a shed load of damage in a short space of time, for example, when an OT dies and the MT needs to pick people up while the OT is getting rezzed.
Your choices for holy are very different from what others would choose. Imp Renew is a tough one. I love the skill, agreed it does level out damage but it would do that even without this talent. i would almost certainly max out divine fury. Granted maybe not for 5 mans but within a 10 man context i can see it usefulness. as you will most likely be the only healer on the MT. 25 mans i can see Gheal's uses (especially after a PW:S it will be the fastest Heal that will punch for the most.), granted not as much as holy, but i don't rely on flash heal getting my tank up say 9k health while still taking damage if my penance is on CD.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=bVcbuhxxMxoVfRtzxtcM
ill be using this spec. Desperate prayer is a brilliant talent as it doesn't need me to target myself to use. instant cast. Binded to my usual PVP trink spot (#) so if i see my screen going mental, its a natural reaction to push it. gets a nice buff off TD. can crit. and always gets me to 100% hp. allows me to click and forget. better than binding heal.
Enlightenment, is not a pvp skill at all. Granted 5% stamina does sound like a pvp skill. but 5% increase to spirit and haste is massive. Read the skill. the more spirit, haste or stamina we get. it will always be increased 5%. it scales! 5% more Spirit that we don't have to stack is much better as it gives more spirit for Meditation to run off for free. Atm my greater heal with this skill and Borrowed Time is hitting around 1.7 sec. i don't have any haste gemmed.
I think as disc. you will be choosing your spec's based on your own play style. there are lots of ways to play the same tree and all of them work well. weather you want to talent for haste and stack crit. or stack crit and talent haste. it all depends of how you play. if your a PW:S @#$%^ then you most defo want Renewed Hope. If your like me and save it for when a damage spike occurs then you want the hasted buff
as a last thing. anybody else noticed that after casting PW:S you can cast penance (hasted) but also the next spell after will gain the haste as well? (try it - PW:S Penance then greater heal straight after)
Post by
148039
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
karlusdavius
Imp. Divine Spirit really isnt worth it. rather spend 2 points elsewhere. like topping up renew maybe.
Post by
Samanosuke
I'd like to acknowledge changes in my proposed builds based on several factors.
1) Changes in how Improved Divine Spirit stacks. Now it does not stack with Shaman totems and other +Spellpower increasing buffs.
2) Calculations in the itemization of +Crit and the mana savings from Improved Healing.
-------------------------------------------
1)
Imrpoved Divine Spirit DOES NOT stack with Shaman totems.
"Prayer of Spirit: Will no longer stack with other raid spell power buffs."
For this reason, in RAIDS, assuming there it at least 1 elemental Shaman, which there usually is....It it nearly pointless to have Improved Divine Spirit. Yes it is helpful in leveling, but once you hit 80 and start raiding, this talent becomes nearly worthless. Divine Spirit still holds some use.
2)
First off 45.91 critical strike rating is needed to raise your crit chance by 1%. Renewed Hope offers a 4% increase to whoever has Weakened soul on them. This is equivalent to a Critical Strike rating of 183.64.
**Rounding the amount of Gems needed up to nearest whole number**
For
PENANCE
......
----This means that
Improved Healing
is equal to 10
Lustrous Sky Sapphire
. (calculate the cost saving of 92mana, divided by how often it is used....8sec, multipled by 5 to get its MP5 cost). This is assuming it is used at every CD, a Best case scenario.
----
Renewed Hope
is equal to 12
Smooth Autumn's Glow
For
GREATER HEAL
......
----
Improved Healing
is equal to 62
Lustrous Sky Sapphire
(Cost savings of 185 per cast, divided by its use time...2.5sec, multiplied by 5 to get its MP5 cost). This is assuming that ONLY Greater Heal is cast, which isn't a realistic expectation. The reason the number is so high is because of how much Greater Heal cost....A LOT.
----
Renewed Hope
is still equal to 12
Smooth Autumn's Glow
Disc priest's typically DO NOT spam Greater Heal, and instead use Flash Heal and Penance as their main casted heals because of how cheap they are.
Improved Healing
Does NOT affect Flash heal.
Conclusion: Between
Renewed Hope
and
Improved Healing
, Renewed Hope is the CLEAR winner. Not only is it equal to more Gems realistically, but there are other benefits....
Consider the Divine Aegis Crit bubble, and the mana return you get from it via
Rapture
.
Consider the increased healing ability that 4% crit confers to a Disc priest.
-----------------------------------
That being said, I would like to change my preferred level 80 raiding spec to.
***
***
***
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=bVcbuhxtMxoifRtcgzc
***
***
***
Post by
256916
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
karlusdavius
you do no that Reflective shield works only on the shield which is active on yourself. unfortunately not on others you cast it on. which is rubbish, but blizz say its intended.
in regards to the build Samanosuke posted. silent resolve is just not needed. why waste 3 points in something can be used better elsewhere. like enlightenment. considering that skill increases the amount by a % value of how much we already have. every time we get more haste from gear. we get more haste from that skill. drop those points in silent resolve. put them elsewhere.
im not to sure on absolution. i think the base amount the spell costs is fine. if you think your using it alot then get the glyph. 8% heal is pretty big on a tank while also dispelling 2 debuffs. EDIT: just saw you only have one point there. id still put that into absolution
i like the holy spec part. and understand your reasoning. ill look into it
Post by
256916
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
124900
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
karlusdavius
Haste is useful in its own regard. 0.9 sec flash heals are very nice which is what i got in SWP gear. I find we would be rolling on more DPS caster stuff. whatever we don't get in gear we can easily make up with gems with the added amount of sockets in wotlk.
If you have 20,000 mana raid-buffed, Replenishment works out to 250 Mp5. Taking talents into consideration, a Discipline priest gains 0.237 Mp5 for every point of intellect, while a Holy priest gains 0.206 Mp5. As mentioned above, Holy also gains a percent of crit for every 150 intellect, while Disc gains the same percent for every 132.
Thus: (ignoring gains in mana pool size)
Discipline: 132 intellect = 1% crit, 31.3 Mp5
Holy: 150 intellect = 1% crit, 30.9 Mp5
Comparatively:
Discipline: 132 spirit = 40 Mp5
Holy: 150 spirit = 46 Mp5 + 43 spellpower
Spirit is good for Mp5 and Meditation. but not really needed. However if there is a substantial gain in SP and has the same amount of stats as your other piece of gear, then roll 4 it.
Post by
Cross88
Your link to glyph of renew actually links to glyph of shadow word: pain.
Post by
144692
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Samanosuke
Disc is good, but I don't feel well to pick up gear. A lot of 80lvl healing clothes are pretty heavy on spirit which is worse than direct mp5 to disc. On those which don't have spirit, more than often you will see heavy haste there, another thing not quite useful to disc spec.
What do you guys think?
Agreed, even the T7 is loaded with spirit and haste.
Only some pieces of it directly benefit a Disc priest, such as the gloves which are loaded with crit.
This moves me onto the next post
Haste is useful in its own regard. 0.9 sec flash heals are very nice which is what i got in SWP gear. I find we would be rolling on more DPS caster stuff. whatever we don't get in gear we can easily make up with gems with the added amount of sockets in wotlk.
Problem is....What you will most often see is that gear will have either have Haste
OR
Crit. Not necessarily both at the same time. When it comes to Disc priest. I think you'll agree that they gain much more of a benefit from Crit.
--Bigger heals for their Long CD spells through crits
--Divine Aegis
--Mana return through divine aegis+rapture.
If you have 20,000 mana raid-buffed, Replenishment works out to 250 Mp5. Taking talents into consideration, a Discipline priest gains 0.237 Mp5 for every point of intellect, while a Holy priest gains 0.206 Mp5. As mentioned above, Holy also gains a percent of crit for every 150 intellect, while Disc gains the same percent for every 132.
Thus: (ignoring gains in mana pool size)
Discipline: 132 intellect = 1% crit, 31.3 Mp5
Holy: 150 intellect = 1% crit, 30.9 Mp5
Comparatively:
Discipline: 132 spirit = 40 Mp5
Holy: 150 spirit = 46 Mp5 + 43 spellpower
Interesting. Nice to see some actual numbers on that.
Overall, from my experience as Disc, I heavily favor +Spellpower, Int, Crit.
I'll be working on a gear list to put up to help get Disc geared for Raids.
Post by
osuracnaes
Instead of creating a new thread, I'm posting my build idea here:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=bVcbuIxtMLoifMtfx0c
An explanation:
Discipline
Most of this is pretty self-explanatory. Some notes below:
3/3
Absolution
I use Dispel and Abolish Disease
a lot
. Making these cheaper is very attractive. Plus, these points were mostly filler. Other possibilities are maxing out
Enlightenment
or grabbing
Desperate Prayer
.
As discussed previously, skipping out on
Improved Divine Spirit
.
4/5
Enlightenment
. Stam, Spirit, and Haste aren't
bad
. Not sure what else I'd put these into.
No
Pain Suppression
. I
might
want to pick this up if I find group heals to be lacking. Toss it on someone squishy if there's heavy group damage to minimize the damage they take... wouldn't have to worry about healing them as much. As far as the threat reduction... watch your own damn threat! :P
Holy
Points 6-10 are specifically to get to
Inspiration
.
Holy Specialization
is a no-brainer. I put the remaining five points all in the first tier...
Healing Focus
because healing pushback is annoying, and
Improved Renew
simply because I didn't see anything better.
Divine Fury
would only affect Greater Heal, and I have yet to cast that while healing.
Post by
sugarzombie
how much mana regen (mp5) should a disc priest have for naxx? all the gear recomendations seam to ignore spirit and mp5, but on the o-forums someone posted they had 300 mp5 from heroic gear. i don't know how all crit & int gear would get u that kind of mana regen.
Post by
osuracnaes
MP/5 is extremely low on my list of stat priorities.
The reason why you want Int is because
Rapture
is your main method of mana regeneration, and the amount you get back is based on your max mana. The more Int you have, the more mana you get back.
Spirit's nice as well due to
Meditation
, and I think you get more out of Spirit item budget-wise than you do with MP/5.
Post by
Samanosuke
how much mana regen (mp5) should a disc priest have for naxx? all the gear recomendations seam to ignore spirit and mp5, but on the o-forums someone posted they had 300 mp5 from heroic gear. i don't know how all crit & int gear would get u that kind of mana regen.
Spirit and actually MP5 is a pretty low priority as osuracnaes said.
Picture this...
Yesterday, during Patchwerk in my current gear (link to my armory in sig) and raid buffed.... When I checked, I had a 20,700 mana ( also had about 1175 Int total, giving me ~7% added crit).
We had multiple ret pallies and a Shadow Priest in the raid so
Replenishment
was constantly on.
20,700 x .025 = 51.75 mana / sec
or
~
258 MP5
Also, Shadowfiend now returns mana based on Maximum Mana, not it's Attack Power.
However, let me clear up a misconcemption.....
The reason why you want Int is because
Rapture
is your main method of mana regeneration, and the amount you get back is based on your max mana. The more Int you have, the more mana you get back.
EDIT: Do not take the number of 3.8% as official. It changes based on your own gear, mana, etc.
This section merely seeks to illustrate a bit on 2.5% being only the "maximum".
It provides mana based on effective healing UP TO 2.5% of your maximum mana (there's a cap). When I tested how much mana was returned by repeatably jumping off the ogri tower and healing myself. I calculated that the return was ~3.8% of my effective healing. Granted I have NOOOO idea what the actual formula was. It was very clear that the return was not entirely based on on max mana.
For instance... A crit Flash heal of 5,000
5,000 x .038 ~ 190 mana returned
IF
all of the heal is effective.
If it crit for 5k and only 3k actually healed the person...
3,000 x .038 ~ 114 mana returned.
Here is where the 2.5% mana cap comes into play...
Lets say you have a mana pool of
ONLY
10,000.
2.5% of this is 250 mana.
You land a Crit Greater Heal for 9,000, and ALL of it is effective
9,000 x .038 ~
342
mana return
BUT WAIT!
This surpasses the limit of 2.5% of maximum mana...So you will only receive 250mana (2.5% of 10,000).
On the other hand....Let's say you threw loads of points into Int, and as a result your mana pool is 15,000
15,000 x .025 = 375.
The new MAXIMUM amount of mana you COULD receive is 375.
So you would get the full benefit of the 342 mana return because it is below the new 375 limit.
This is an obvious little thing blizz threw in for particular instances. Think about anytime where a character gains
super large
increases in Spellpower (like the portals for Netherspite). You could theoretically score HUGE heals and recover your mana completely. This is to prevent that.
Int is important for Rapture, not so much because it determines how much you actually get back, but rather, it determines how much you potentially COULD get back (at a maximum).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The main benifit that is dervived from Int is...
1) Larger mana pool
2) Increased return from Replenishment and Shadowfiend
3) Increased Crit Chance
4) WIth that crit chance you get an increased chance for
Divine Aegis
which when
combined
with
Rapture
gives mana return (as well as more effective heals)
5) Int actually gives Mana regen although not as much as spirit....
Warning....Followup Post coming.....
Post by
Samanosuke
Mana Regen is based on this formula...
Mana Regen = 5 * sqrt(Int) * Spirit * Base_Regen
The constant at level 80 being 0.005575
Lets assume we have...
900 Int
400 Spirit
0 MP5 from items
3/3 Meditation
This would give us...
334 MP5 while not casting.
100 MP5 while casting.
Lets switch it...
400 Int
900 Spirit
0 MP5 from items
3/3 Meditation
We now have...
501 MP5 while not casting.
150 MP5 while casting.
However we lost 500 Int.
Without taking
Mental Strength
into Account nor any other buffs such as
blessing of kings
(and its
upgrade
)...
We lost ~3% spell crit.
We lost ~ 7,500 mana
and we lost ~
94 MP5
from Replenishment
Especially since Disc lacks all the clearcasting talents that Holy has and stays pretty much Inside the FSR. MP5 while casting is much more important for a Disc priest.
That being said.
Take a look at the difference in MP5 while casting in these 2 examples (not taking replenishment into account)... the diff is only 50 MP5.
Instead of dropping LOADS of int to pick up spirit. Simply go for some MP5 gear.
I myself have 68 MP5 through my gear...and it's not even optimal (still in the process of gearing).
I hope this helps to illustrate that a Disc doesn't need spirit, and instead needs Int and MP5 as its regen stat.
Even then.....MP5 is only picked up in the event that the Disc doesn't have enough regen and you find yourself going OOM alot.
I believe my top choices in gear in this post reflect this....
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=46719#p463054
*Take a look at the cloak section*
-------------------------------------------------
In contrast to Disc priests in the above example...
Holy priests have nifty things to stay outside of FSR. Inner Focus, Holy Concentration, and they have a more reliance on casted spells that can be canceled on need (unlike Disc's instant spells).
Also....with 900 spirit, a Holy priest would gain +225 Spellpower.
Post by
255900
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
144692
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Post by
Samanosuke
I dont know why everyone skills borrowed time, well i was holy before but i use shield almost only in emergency situations, most of the time i still use only renew, pom, penance and gheal to keep the tank/grp up. I heavily rely on spirit though, 1100 spirit self buffed immo so i dont really have any mana problems.
My current build is
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=bVcbdhxtrxoVfRzcxtcc
and it works for me so far, maybe ill try a "crit spec" once i get enough crit items with mana reg on them.
PW:S provides an instant and powerful ~7k in "healing" (through shield effect and the glyph heal).
This serves the dual purpose of being able to cast on partymembers about to take damage...such as casting it on anyone who has
Mutating Injection
that Grobbulus does in Naxx. Or providing quick saves.
It's primary purpose is that of a tank buffer. What other "heal" do you know of that can be cast when the tank has FULL hp and still be 100% effective? PW:S has this ability. Over this course of the fight it WILL be used, it so as long as you toss it out, it is effective. Renewed hope gives the equivalent of 4 points of Holy Specialization.
Holy Spec and Disc Spec have entirely different fundamentals.
Holy is concerned with directly Healing damage
Disc is concerned with minimizing the damage that is coming in, the result is less that has to be healed.
I use PW:S in a way that I only really have to focus on one target.
I can tell you straight out. If you use Gheal on a regular basis as your main heal, Disc is not for you.
Holy gains MUCH more benefits and talents from using Gheal.
Everything from a
more powerful
heal,
cheaper
, Sometimes entirely
free
,
Hasted
, etc etc. Not to mention the fact that a Holy priest can stay outside the FSR TONS more than a Disc priest through Holy Concentration.
If you are using Disc but playing as Holy, solely for Grace and Divine Aegis. You are severly gimping yourself.
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