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Wotlk Balance is not bloat, but many talent is too messy
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Post by
Sirena
I love moonkin:D, i have been tinkering with talent calacultor all the time, but it seem some talent work weirdly.
Such as
Celestial focus
, the Stun component is for PvP for sure, but the Haste seem very good for Dps too.....same case such as
bramble
(thorn for theat, daze for pvp, damage for pvp),
Gale wind
(damage increase for PvE Aoe, cyclone range for pvp and pve utilies)
Owlkin frenzy
(Aoe and PvP)
make the talent tree feel boat due to you need to take the talent because you just only want half of the benifit.
i remember they said they want to separate Dps and Uilities talent, should something like this be report?Also there are more weird case
Imp Faerie Fire
is dps unfriendly, and
Improve Insect Swarm
Worst then a 2 point(
Nature's majestry
) that 2 point for 4% and always on and don't have so much talent requirement....
Do you think it is fine?
P.S, i make my talent tree in wartool :D
http://www.war-tools.com/t59288.html
i wish i could post this in beta forum but i can't-3- as i am player in taiwan server
edit: spelling
edit: change pvp and pve to dps and utilites to prevent confusing:)
Post by
5200
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
faia
I love moonkin:D, i have been tinkering with talent calacultor all the time, but it seem some talent work weirdly
Such as
Celestial focus
, the Stun component is for PvP for sure, but the Haste seem very good for PvE too.....same case for
bramble, Gale wind, Owlkin frenzy
and so on
i remember they said they want to separate PvE and PvP talent, should something like this be report?Also there are more weird case
Imp Faerie Fire
is dps unfriendly, and
Improve Insect Swarm
Worst then a 2 point(
Nature's majestry
) that 2 point for 4% and always on and don't have so much talent requirement....
Do you think it is fine?
P.S, i make my talent tree in wartool :D
http://www.war-tools.com/t59288.html
i wish i could post this in beta forum but i can't-3- as i am player in taiwan server
edit: spelling
1) me to
2)true
3)i think they seperated fine? cost some damage for pvp oriented stuff? but yeah its preety weird how they made them both pvp part that not needed in pve and vice versa
4a)okey i not see where 3 point for 3% crit + 3% hit is unfriendly to me its more dps and less hit gear needed
4b) in pvp wrath part is good as ...wrath is the spell you spam most in pvp 3 more crit for 1 gcd for 3 more crit rate?don't see that bad
in pve...i cant see what 3 % again...to starfire is bad? (we can nice go mf, sf x 3-5 depend on haste )
5)did want imp moonkin to be build in in normal moonkin...except from that i like the war tool tree
to FaaR:
you not played beta apparantly....oomkin age is over like what? long ago
"little synergy"....you not like moonkin , that simple i not big fan of feral even i like to play as warrior and rogue but that fine that we got diffrent liking fo playstyle
but to say for my self about balance atm....its a bit confusing (haste here and there...some damage + here and there) but note there are changes not updated on wow head like 3 points for earth and moon only but you get same, and thypoon is very lackluster and weak not talk about ugly>.<
but like the talent idea on war tool even nature fury did give very much for be 3 point talent throw it on suggestion forum,and when i see over that i agree with you, but think they did this so not come "cookie cutter build"
Post by
Sirena
Sure, the worst things of balance it have to invest 11 point(to get OOC and mastershapshifter)
i belive we already don't require to spec in
Intensity
as
Moonkin Form M
oonglow and dreamstates already provide a fair mana regen, we also have innervate and Improve Moonkin form to increase the power of spirit, i think it is acceptable,
but not on par with other class
Maybe move
Nature's shapeshifter
and
master shapeshifter
one tier lower
will help, i still don't understand why we must use
furor
or
improve mark of the wild
as filter talent to get OOC
Perhaps the server not support this but i would like to see that coming
but to say for my self about balance atm....its a bit confusing (haste here and there...some damage + here and there) but note there are changes not updated on wow head like 3 points for earth and moon only but you get same, and thypoon is very lackluster and weak not talk about ugly>.<
The fact is,
they know those talent are lackcluster and try to add passive bonus to help a bit,
end up with confused player and more Feral druid
"cookie cutter build"
I remember well that they expect after ypu put point Dps increase talent, other(pvp, utilities CC) is optional so every have their choice, but binding haste and PvP stun seem not suit that philosophy
(i make that change on my wartool talent tree,
http://www.war-tools.com/t59288.html
i am still tinkering with it, i really wish someone could help me to post this on the offical forum><)
Post by
razzem
10% int in moonkin form is huge for the new replenishment mechanics.
Imp FF and Imp IS give you an additional 6% crit, which is good with the new mana-on-crit moonkin form buff.
I fail to see where moonkin is sucking, frankly. What talents don't you like?
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=0xGbzicsAdIVzotZMxckb
Post by
Sirena
10% int in moonkin form is huge for the new replenishment mechanics.
2->2.2......yes this help, but i fail to see that is better than ANY of talent that help mana issue (and those are 3 point's only and work without Moonkin form)
Imp FF and Imp IS give you an additional 6% crit, which is good with the new mana-on-crit moonkin form buff.
Iam not saying
Imp IS
is worthless, but it can't match a
tier 2 talent(Nature's majesty)
i know they stack but with so much restiction i think that talent should provide more steady damage increase or less requirement, Also
ImpFF actually wasting one of our GCD which have been proof reducing our dps even Increase our crit.
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=0xGbzicsAdIVzotZMxckb
you don't track up the news, earth and moon and moon fury now 3 point only :)
Nature Grace improve our dps(like you said it crit is more important and this talent scale with crit!)
Celestial Focus haste is a plain Dps increase too.
Although Eclipse still boring right now but it is a huge bonus that increase starfire 10%crit, help mana regen too.
Intensity+improve moonkin make spirit more valuable, but i understand intensity is not that needed
so overall
you miss many dps increase talent
, but some of them is not worth the talent cost as they mix with PvP(celestial focus) raid utility(ImpFF) Also
most othere utilties is ALL fold in to Bramble
, you want 1 bonus and you need to waste that 3 point too.
EVEN you don't want any utilties, you will end up like
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=0xGbzicsAdIVzotZMxckb
which is boring and still not able to choose all Raid talent.
(
http://www.war-tools.com/t59288.html
)it maybe a solution but i think Blizzard will watch these forumT_T
Post by
razzem
You're confusing PVP talents with PVE talents.
And what your total mana pool is greatly effects how much mana you get back from replenishment mechanics, namely shadowpriests, and now hunters. By a lot.
Post by
Sgtpain
Here is another potential issue. With GCDs, casting all of these debuffs on the mobs will cause a dramatic decrease in damage. We need less time casting debuffs and more time casting actualy dps spells too.
Post by
Sirena
You're confusing PVP talents with PVE talents.
I don't mean to separate the talent to PVE or PvP, but separate to utilites and Dps :),everyone Should have some spare point to pick uilities (stun or raid +hit+haste) after taking most vital dps talent(mana regen and damage increase).
And what your total mana pool is greatly effects how much mana you get back from replenishment mechanics, namely shadowpriests, and now hunters. By a lot.
I didn't say you are wronge, actually addtional int can benifit dreamstate and lunar guidance too (by a small amount), but it don't affect moonkin regen and raid regen as much as you think as those base on mana pool not int. So in term of talent point it is still don't worth of 5 point when compare to Intensity, Moonglow and Dreamstate, also don't work if we out drop out from moonkin form.
Here is another potential issue. With GCDs, casting all of these debuffs on the mobs will cause a dramatic decrease in damage. We need less time casting debuffs and more time casting actualy dps spells too.
The only redundent debuff we need to cast is Faerie Fire, which have a only little help for raid and casting this harm our Dps, that's why i suggest make Faerie Fire to refresh IS in
http://www.war-tools.com/t59288.html
Post by
razzem
but it don't affect moonkin regen and raid regen as much as you think as those base on mana pool not int. So in term of talent point it is still don't worth of 5 point when compare to Intensity, Moonglow and Dreamstate, also don't work if we out drop out from moonkin form.
No, INT is the single largest stat that increases your total mana. This affects regen mechanics by a lot. I'd take this over dreamstate and intensity at this point, seeing as INT/mana is the single largest stat to regain mana in a raid now.
ps- spirit regen coefficients are being cut by 50% by the time we reach level 80... spirit will regen less than INT according to the beta Replenishment numbers that are going on now. I've been watching this closely since I have a Holy Priest in addition to my Moonkin.
Post by
Sirena
I know the nerf of spirit and intensity is not as good as other, all i want to say is
It don't benifit caaster form like other 2 mana regen talent
5 point seem too much(even for feral to take the rage and energy bonus), it work in well with many talent, but every benfit is minor
That is why i say it is not able to match up with other mana regen talents, sorry for my bad expression :) , and that is the problem of balance in low tier of restoration. getting
Nature's shapeshifter (we have much lower cost for shifting compare to feral and won't shift in and out as much as feral)
is not worth the cost of point to get OoC and Master shapeshifter somehow
Post by
5200
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Celdhyrean
PvP and PvE not well separated :
* PvP talents i wouldn't take for PvE (until high pushback environments): Nature's Focus, Owlkin Frenzy, Brambles, Typhoon.
* PvE talent having a use for PvP are Celestial Focus, FoN, E&M, Gale Winds
It's partly true, but i do think that there's enough room for differentiation in the end. i don't do much PvP though so i'm not an expert. Is it that different for other classes ?
Lack of new shiny things : all classes were supposed to get 3 new spells. The problem for hybrids is that each spec should get one obviously, which doesn't give us much novelty for each spec. All i can say is that i'm very satisfied with what i'm getting in wotlk in terms of PvE viability.
As for getting bored, i can always switch to heal or tank if i want to see new angles to fights. It's not as if other classes will have more playing styles either.
at a cost of ANOTHER three talent points I didn't have to pay for in live WoW.Well, if you don't want to take iMkA, that's your problem. But you'll also be losing on 3% raid wide haste.
Furor gives +10% mana regen to replenishment stuff and mana on crit procs. I'd have to find the dps simulator charts to tell you how much regen we can expect from each mecanic, but replenishment and crits did play a big part in that, so that number should still be significant.
Regarding refund on crits, yes owls will have a large crit rate. Be it only because we get 19% solely from talents (moonkin form + Nature's Majesty) plus having a mage in the raid
Post by
razzem
I see what you guys are saying, I guess like Celd, I see some talent that are very obviously PVP (brambles, owlkin frenzy) and some that are mixed. In my opinion, many of the mixed ones, though good, still lack the demand that would make them necessary for pve (Gale Winds, Celestial Focus). Not that they wouldn't help, but I think there are lots of other talents that come first.
I still see Omen of Clarity as a necessity, as well as master shapeshifter, and potentially even Intensity. Since I feel the need to take at least 11 or 14 points in Resto, choosing the best pve talents in balance starts becoming lots easier when looking for the "Best" talents.
Also, don't get to worked up; every class is experiencing this right now. They want all the talents and they can't have them all. Same is true of priests (which I also have), warriors, DKs, etc, etc, etc. Heck, take a look at Feral and you'll see the same thing. They WANT you to have to choose.
Post by
Sirena
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=8557253680&sid=2000#2
this post is from Koraa, taking about the PvE and PvP talent must separate.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=10043238273&pageNo=2&sid=2000#22
this post is GC on amount of talent need for have a competable damage with other class
By sum up this 2 thead, i think what should be in talent tree is 3 type of talent:
Normal damage(Starlight wrath, Moonfury, Imp Moonfire, Imp IS, Imp Faerie fire(crit),etc)
PvE(mana regen,Raid +hit/+haste ,Bramble(threat on thorn),Celestial focus(haste), etc)
PVP(Celestial focus(stun), Bramble(Daze and thorn dmg),etc)
By listing the talent type you will find out most of them overlaped. While they think you need to pick damage increase talent first, after having a comparable Dps with other class, then use remaining point to choose Uilites(Pve/PvP). My concern is will we be forced to take Mixed talent like Celestial Focus or Imp Faerie Fire to just make our Damage comparable with other class and lose the choice of what uilities we really want.
Post by
razzem
we be forced to take Mixed talent like Celestial Focus or Imp Faerie Fire
Imp Fairie Fire is far from a mixed talent. I know of no other classes (other than the Draenie Racial) that give raid-wide +spell hit. And it increases our crit chance? That's a pve talent through and through.
Concerning the nerf to every other classes +hit, we should be grateful that we have 7% +hit with talents. Shadowpriests have been smacked from 10% +hit down to 3%. Same with Arcane Mages. We have it good, imo.
Post by
153992
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Celdhyrean
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=8557253680&sid=2000#2
this post is from Koraa, taking about the PvE and PvP talent must separate.This post doesn't mean that mixed talents are "bad". It means that when you build a PvP build, you shouldn't be forced to take PvE only talents to reach certain tiers (and same for PvE). Mixed talents actually go quite a way to reach this objective.
Post by
razzem
Honestly, I'm most interested to see if Moonkin will be viable mana-wise if only Furor is taken in the Resto tree. Omen of Clarity seems too good to pass up, and so does Intensity, but it sure would be nice to only need 5 points in Resto with the balance in Balance :D
Post by
5200
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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