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Holy Priests Need Major PVP Help
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Post by
SeaOfHoles
I can't remember the last time I didn't win the total healing done in a BG by at least 100k and that's with a PvE holy spec with absolutely no survivability whatsoever.
I feel the same way, I may not be on top of the healing charts but I'm no lower than 3rd or 4th from the top (well, I was back when I pvped regularly). It's all a matter of being non-descript and knowing when to run away.
I am usually near the top of the healing charts also, and occasionally I can be #1. But, its not about your rank. Its about how much you healed. When #1 (Paladin) has 480K healed and I worked my butt off to be 3rd with 210K healed, that doesn't seem quite right, given that healing is what my class is made for.
I look at the healing after EVERY BG, and I RARELY see a Priest on top. So, its certainly not that I am simply a "bad" Priest. Its endemic to the class.
The times I get to be #1, I suspect it's because there are no Holadins or Resto Druids playing ...
Post by
SeaOfHoles
1. How much resilience do you have? If you don't have much, you will die extremely fast.
I am at about 200 right now. Honestly, I have been messing around with my equip and I don't see that much of an effect whether I am in resilience gear or healing gear.
How much STA do you have? If you are under 10k hp, you are a liability in a battleground.
I generally have about 8800. And I don't think I am a liability if I am with people who make an attempt to heal/protect me. I think that is the major frustrating point. A Holy Priest in PVP has to rely on his teammates a BUNCH, and when it doesn't happen, it sucks.
Have you tried out Blessed Resilience?
Yes. I have had it since the 1st time I pvped. It has always been my opinion that it is by far the BEST PVP talent a Priest can get.
But, like I said earlier, one of the biggest problems I seem to have is all the anti-healing skills that all the other classes have. My instants can't come anywhere close to keeping up with the damage from 1 DPS, let alone 2. I have to use Flash, Bind or Greater. And it seems as though those tend to get interrupted a whole lot. And I don't mean the partial interruptions like you get with mobs. It's the complete interruptions.
And it's disheartening to see a Resto Druid running around with 3 DPS on his *ss and a Holy Priest dispelling him and it still is very hard to put him away.
Especially in WSG. That BG seems to really cause me the most pain. I guess in a 10 on 10, I can't get "lost" as easily.
It gets better, and I speak from personal experience here. In fact, it becomes enjoyable. You'll also find that you can wreak some serious havoc with your Fear and Dispel and especially Manaburn (better if talented... another 2 points well spent, and you can still have all the main talents for your full holy build). Manaburn is quite possibly the best way to stop a Resto-Druid.
Right. In addition to healing, I am constantly dispelling Warlock and Druid dots from myself. At least in WSG, not as much in the others, I spend a lot of time dispelling the Druid flag carriers.
Right, I am specced for fast Mana Burn, and use that a lot on those pesky Paladins.
I have tried using the landscape to my advantage, but, I am constantly amazed how people seem to see through that..
Post by
razzem
It sounds like you're doing everything right as far as talents and playing goes.
I'd say the best thing you can do is get your resilience up. It makes a huge difference going from 200 from 300. Resilience affect damage from DoTs, crits, and the like.
Don't get fixated on how much you're actually healing for. Prayer of Mending doesnt count as your heal, it counts off of who it actually procs from, so that's credit that you're not getting. Focus on if you are able to hold a post/node, keep a tank up, keep a dps feared, etc.
Resilience at this point; sounds like you're on track.
Post by
SeaOfHoles
Don't get fixated on how much you're actually healing for. Prayer of Mending doesnt count as your heal, it counts off of who it actually procs from, so that's credit that you're not getting. Focus on if you are able to hold a post/node, keep a tank up, keep a dps feared, etc.
Didn't know what about PoM. That would certainly add a whole bunch of healing to my tally and I guess take away from the Druids and Paladins.
Post by
razzem
Yeah. Same is true in any raid.
If you have WWS (or someone from your guild does), go to the healing tab. You'll see that when you check out your toon, YOUR prayer of mending is very small because it's only tracking when it procs off of you.
Instead, sort by
abilities
from the main page, and check out Prayer of Mending. Note that any other priests that are throwing PoMs wont be differentiated. However, it will show you TOTAL how much PoM actually healed the whole raid for.
On the last Tempest Keep run, there were 2 holy priests, me and one other. Between the 2 of us throwing PoM, total healing was just over 1 million health points. Pretty good spell, just really hard to track how much it does with the mechanics of it.
Post by
Lightrain
I went to ZA last night, and was on a coh build for lord hex. Then I went to do dailies on the Island. I will tell you right now. Holy is HORRIBLE for pvp. Granted, I didn't have blessed resil or imp. mana burn, but still. I have no issues with avoiding a holy build like the plague when it comes to pvp.
Holy isn't made to pvp. Go disc. I could not take on one horde of any class as holy. As disc, they will all be at half before I die if there are 3 or less. 1 or 2 are typically dead. If they are casters, that may be a different story(mage/sham in particular.).
Post by
razzem
Sort of biased to call Holy a bad pvp spec when you don't take the pvp talents in it, eh?
Sure, it doesn't hold up to to a full discipline build with equally high resilience, but don't knock it unless you spec into the pvp talents, right?
ps- That 30% stacked healing bonus from Focused will is getting hella nerfed with the next patch. Discipline will still be better for pvp though.
Post by
Keyzzz
Ok first off if you want survivability youre going to have to do something constantly throughout the bg. It can be annoying but it will become second nature.
1. Shield on all times
2. PoM on
3. Renew
i must add a 4...
4. keep Inner Fire on at ALL times. its nearly a 20% reduction in melee damage (12% w/o to 32% with) thats huge... and its an insta cast.
I play both shadow and disc... never bothered wtih Holy, but you can litterally SEE when inner fire falls off with a rogue/druid beating on you... not such a big deal vs warriors as they dont swing nearly as often... but a rogue or druid will chew this buff off you just in their stunlock... and suddenly you start getting hit for metric %^&*loads.
if nothing else, remember this about priests:
your buffs ARE your survivability. never EVER EVER figure meh... i wont use that buff... its your LIFELINE. fullbuff yourself EVERY time you rez. seriously. it makes all the difference...
so when inner fire falls off, seriously, take the 1 GCD it takes to renew it and toss it back on. hands down one of my favorite spells... (and dont bother specing for improved inner fire either... instead of 32, i get roughly 35% reduction... not worth it)
second point of note: use your dispell liberally. seriously. both defensively and offensively. dispell is keyed to when I'm either shadow OR Disc. it IS what priesting is all about. instead of healing through dots, dispell them... or (lawl@locks who dot the world up) Pom yourself, let it bounce, then dispell em. more mana efficient, saves time, and wastes the enemy's mana. win. DEFINETLY spec for reduced mana dispells. it wont give you top spot on the charts, but it WILL = win.
lastly: rely as heavily as possible on insta-cast spells. dont bother with Greater heal.. you WILL get interupted. and use flash heal ONLY if your target already has renew up, has been PoM'd, and Shielded. you cannot get pummeled, kicked, imp CS'd or longduration spell locked while casting instas.
Further, be generally aware that by not specing disc, you're prolly gonna die alot faster than a disc priest would, and get used to not topping charts... healing done through POM, PW:S, and effective dispelling does NOT register as healing credited to you... and those are 3 of the 4 spells you should be using the most. (renew being the other)
Additionally, learn as best as you can how to draw a pummel/kick. you WILL get rogues and warriors on you... ALL the time. period. they look at you as the easiest healer to kill (which, reguardless of gear, you are and aren't depending on skill). Start casting a flash heal, and jump mid cast... i actually make a macro to /lol when i drew the pummel/kick... then you have 8 or so seconds to heal with litteral impunity. they cannot stop you.. THAT is when you use your greater heal... otherwise, you're just ASKING to be put out of commission for the duration of the silence... which is usually just about all the time they need to finish you or your target off.
as for CoH, ive never speced holy, so i have no data... i dunno if its mana efficient enough to bother with, but it IS insta, so its likely a good choice (assuming it is mana/time efficient) after you've pom/renew/shileded your target.
Edit: all that being said, you gotta realize that you rolled a priest to support. its already a non-glory role. you're rarely gonna top heal charts... leave that to the FOTM droods. you gotta get self-actualization through knowing that if you weren't there, priesting... your team would have suffered immensly. all the things priests bring that other healers dont dont have charts... you dont get credit for mana burning (other than 400ish dmg lawl) and you dont get credit for debuffing, or removing debuffs. you dont get credit for dmg absorbed by your shield, or healing done through POM, yet these are the things that make a good priest.
Post by
oddbrown
...all that being said, you gotta realize that you rolled a priest to support. its already a non-glory role. you're rarely gonna top heal charts... leave that to the FOTM droods. you gotta get self-actualization through knowing that if you weren't there, priesting... your team would have suffered immensly. all the things priests bring that other healers dont dont have charts... you dont get credit for mana burning (other than 400ish dmg lawl) and you dont get credit for debuffing, or removing debuffs. you dont get credit for dmg absorbed by your shield, or healing done through POM, yet these are the things that make a good priest.
QFT
Wise words that should be listened to.
If you enjoy PvP (and it sounds like you enjoy the scenarios more than getting your butt handed to you), then measure it by how much fun you have had, and how many players you have kept alive/helped kill.
Priests are real team players. We struggle to solo other players the way a rogue or hunter can. We can't run around HoTing the world or spam FoL in our plate gear. We have no chain heal and mail armour.
We do, however, offer the best versatility (in any spec) of any class. We can do a variety of things that other classes just can't do. We may not be the chat-topping-best according to the numbers, but priests provide some of the greatest utility in the game.
Remember why you rolled priest? I bet it wasn't to compare yourself to resto druids and paladins on healing charts.
Personally I'm a PvEer in a PvP server, so I get served quite regularly, but I still stick to my guns, and adapt my playstyle (rather than my spec) to suit the situations.
My HoTs and PoMs can outheal arms warrior dps. Shammies and rogues eat me alive. Casters tend not to do too well against me, it depends a lot on the element of surprise.
Know your enemies, know who you can and can't outheal.
Learn that there is no shame in running away ocasionally (or using LoS) instead of being a cheap HK.
Post by
223885
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
razzem
From my experience, COH is one of the most useless skill in BG since it's only heal 1 party, not the whole raid so I rarely use it as a heal.... Only use it in a really special case.
This is very true now, but come 3.0 CoH will hit the closest raid members, so you won't be limited out by that whole "party only" deal. I do not use CoH in BGs or Arena atm, but that might change for BGs with this next patch.
Post by
SeaOfHoles
Remember why you rolled priest? I bet it wasn't to compare yourself to resto druids and paladins on healing charts.
Sure it as. I rolled a Priest to heal. Not to do death and destruction. To provide support for my team. Same reason I was a Cleric in EQ, a Healer in DAOC. It's not like I am new to this role. And it's not like I don't enjoy it. My main issue is that I don't feel I often contribute as much to my side as I should compared to other healers, simply because of the survivability issue.
With little offense, I should be fantastic at healing, to myself and to others. I should be the best. How can I compare the utility of my class besides comparing my core talent to other classes? As I understand now, PoM isn't take into account on those charts, so it probably is not nearly as bad as I think it is ;)
Anyway ..... my big fear, and of course it has already happened to some degree. Blizzard seems to be splitting talent builds into "survivor" and "non-survivor". Players certainly seem to overwhelmingly think that is the case. Pretty soon, no one plays the non-survivors, just like in games past, people always flock to the FOTM (flavor of the month). That's not right. That's bad design. Sorry to put it so bluntly.
And as many people have pointed out over the years. How much does a dead Priest heal for? Therefore, survival is your #1 concern. Given that. Why choose Priest over Resto Druid given that Resto Druid is SOOOO much more survivable? And isn't the point of PVP to be playing and not sitting at the 30 second death countdown over and over and over again?
What's going to happen when Blizzard finally makes world PVP more enjoyable? Are we expected to switch talents to travel from 1 city to another in order to be "survivable"?
If the typical battle starts off with everyone charging the Priest, I don't care how many DPS are around me, I am going to die very quickly given that my only counter is a highly resisted 30 second Fear.
And sure, I try to hide as much as the next guy. But, I swear, some of those Hordies must have Priest radar, because they will often find me before I have casted more than a spell or two.
I left DAOC because of the inane PVP it evolved into. Mythic was clueless. I don't, and I suspect most people don't have fun when they have lost character control more often than they have it (CC, Snare, Root, Stun, ANTI-HEALING, etc). I don't, and I suspect most people don't have fun when combat lasts all of 3 seconds.
Anyway, heres to my quest to keep adding more resilience, more hps and WOTLK. May Holy Priests find a place.
Post by
Keyzzz
I rolled a Priest to heal. Not to do death and destruction. To provide support for my team. Same reason I was a Cleric in EQ, a Healer in DAOC. It's not like I am new to this role. And it's not like I don't enjoy it. My main issue is that I don't feel I often contribute as much to my side as I should compared to other healers, simply because of the survivability issue.
And as many people have pointed out over the years. How much does a dead Priest heal for? Therefore, survival is your #1 concern.
I left DAOC because of the inane PVP it evolved into. Mythic was clueless. I don't, and I suspect most people don't have fun when they have lost character control more often than they have it (CC, Snare, Root, Stun, ANTI-HEALING, etc). I don't, and I suspect most people don't have fun when combat lasts all of 3 seconds.
I hear you loud and clear... I played a bard in Daoc... and lemme tell ya... i was AAAAAAAAAAALWAYS the first targetted... nothing screamed "KILL ME FIRST" like that damn drum in my hands and the retarded little music note animation...
While i most obviously have a soft spot for
a) the underdog class
b) support classes
as evidenced by my choosing both Bard and Priest... I hate to have to say it... but there is a reason priests generally dont spec holy to pvp...
just like there is a reason mages dont generally spec fire or arcane, and rogues generally dont spec combat, etc etc...
survivability is Key in pvp. thats the name of the game... the most important part of the DPS or HPS equations is the 'PS' part. if you run out of seconds, how much +dmg or +healing you have is irrelevant. for that matter how many bonuses you get from tallents that increase your dmg or healing dont matter either.
As priests, we are cloth healers... we bargained already to be ultra-squishy. The only way i know of to offset that is to spec for un-squishy-ness.
just like you should gem your gear for +resilience and stamina before + healing, you should spec for + 'PS' instead of +healing/dmg.
after months of frusteration trying to make shadow work on a global scale, i finally gave in and speced disc. my role in arena's changed from 'try to kill something before you die' to 'so THIS is what the end of an arena battle looks like from up here..." instead of the otherwise innevitable dirtpile.
I encourage you... try disc out. it has alot of bells and whistels that will enhance your gameplay... and most importantly, it is the supreme 'PS' spec. You will still heal very well assuming you're appropriately geared, and, truthfully, will probably heal better (max 'PS' allows you to burn 100% of your mana healing instead of 20%). Winning is always funner than loosing, yes, but a win that leaves you dead... doesn't quite feel complete.
I said all that to say this: there is a reason sterio-types exist... and that reason is that, generally, they are true. The masses spec'd disc, not because they didn't like holy, but because it simply worked better. As a disc specced priest, if i am targetted first, the opponents generally wish that they didn't pick me first. you become almost invincible... running flags solo across the wsg field with 2 rogues and a warrior on your ass. try that in holy... and i doubt you'd make it out of the flag room.
as you so eloquently put it... Holy priests might heal better than disc priests, but live priests DEFINETLY heal better than dead ones. Just give it a shot... you might find you like seeing the end of fights =)
Post by
SeaOfHoles
I encourage you... try disc out. it has alot of bells and whistels that will enhance your gameplay... and most importantly, it is the supreme 'PS' spec. You will still heal very well assuming you're appropriately geared, and, truthfully, will probably heal better (max 'PS' allows you to burn 100% of your mana healing instead of 20%). Winning is always funner than loosing, yes, but a win that leaves you dead... doesn't quite feel complete.
While I understand that Disc may be very powerful in Arena ... I don't Arena. I am solely BGs. I don't see Disc being so superior in those conditions. 8 secs of "survivability" every 2 minutes doesn't sound all the impressive to me
But you're right. I should probably at least try it for a couple weeks.
Post by
230276
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Crowax
I used this spec after a few BGs in my pve shadow...it was before wotlk tho, so now it looks a bit different (for example unbreakable will doesn't seem as good as it was...when it procced)
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=bV0MZfAzhc0qr0hZ0xffRbo
Divine fury - I found out I nearly never used any of listed spells, so I didnt pick it up
Martyrdom,Blessed recovery,Blessed resilience - considered you are usually healing yourself while friends kill that damn "KILLDAHEALER" dps, this makes you actually live much longer.
Desperate prayer - replaced holy nova, which every priest has now. Low on hp? You won't avoid it...heal yourself!
Shadow tree - silence for anything that casts - people usually don't expect silence out of shadowform. mind flay for added offensive + blackout for stuns (rank 1 sw:p when you desperately need to stop flag carrier in wsg/enemy dps from approaching your own carrier).
I say, I was able to kill with this 1 v 1 (often, not all classes, but they had far better gear. Just keep sw:p on them, fear+mind flay and occasional mind blast) and survive pretty long against more opponents. The thing is, the talents have changed with patch, so it is no longer the same - but very close.
Just watch the lolrogue who crits only once in 6 secs, is periodically feared away, mindflayed and blackouted.
Watch silenced mages stand in one place confused what to do. They do nothing.
BTW, psychic scream does unstealth rogues and cats. It's fun to watch them :D
Pull interrupts with mind control. If you cast it, have fun. If you're interrupted, you won't have heals locked out.
About gear:
I didnt get wep first. I got the cheapest s2 pieces with the most resilience per honor ;-) Did miracles with my survival. Wep came just when I had around 200 res.
Post by
SeaOfHoles
FWIW, as a tailor, one item I have been using a lot more lately is the Netherweave Nets.
Post by
1034144
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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