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"You must be behind the target"
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Post by
Sgtpain
"You must be behind the target"
"You must be behind the target"
"You must be behind the target"
"You must be behind the target"
"You must be behind the target"
"You must be behind the target"
Anyone else's screen look like this when doing trash in raids? I have read that they are aware that positional dps gimps the druid in many cases, but, how is this being addressed?
Post by
pelf
Well, if you have trouble finding the back of the mob, you could always just mangle (lol).
If your tanks can't keep their mobs still, then that's not your fault.
Post by
Sgtpain
It's not just in raid/5 man cases though. When soloing PvE, PvP, etc, it's an issue too. I watch my dps on recount when I am soloing, and if I am with someone else, I can get behind the target, there is about a 200 dps difference in some cases when I am in front or behind the target.
You're right in your comment though. I started getting a little frustrated and expressed my frustration with the tank about holding still. Sure, all melee dps should be behind the target for best dps, but, we are the ONLY class that REQUIRES being behind the target to do good dps.
As for spamming mangle, ugh...the damage done with that is pitiful. Thats what I have to do when I am soloing and doing PvP and that's what causes the 200+ dps difference when I can't be behind the target. Shred crits for 2800-2900 and mangle crits for about 1600 and costs almost the same to use. :( Its no wonder we suck so bad in PvP when we are being gimped by 1200 damage on each hit. (I know, resilience and armor comes in tot he equation, but you see my point)
Post by
Kaitain
As for spamming mangle, ugh...the damage done with that is pitiful. Thats what I have to do when I am soloing and doing PvP and that's what causes the 200+ dps difference when I can't be behind the target. Shred crits for 2800-2900 and mangle crits for about 1600 and costs almost the same to use. :( Its no wonder we suck so bad in PvP when we are being gimped by 1200 damage on each hit. (I know, resilience and armor comes in to the equation, but you see my point)
All i can say to this is i think your missing the point of cat DPS in PvP. The whole art of it is getting behind the targets. To quote
Obby
, "Shred Shred Shred". If you can't shred players much, well.. you should learn. It's worth it :-)
Post by
Lightrain
My screen never looks like that when clearing in raids. If I get that once, I move. If you are anywhere near the front of the mob, you are not in the right spot, so if you hit shred and that comes up, you have to move. You should have a lot of hit rating, not a whole lot of expertise as a raid dps. This means if you get that spammed on your screen, you have a chance to get parried or blocked. Also, if you see that a lot, you aren't doing your job as dps.
Just IMO, you have about 180 degrees of "behind the target", so you should be able to find it pretty easy. If not, you probably have aggro, or should be spamming mangle since your dps is gimped enough by not being behind it, let alone you not doing anything about it. This is how you get rogues too, go bear and try to get behind them before you bash em. They can't dodge or parry that one. =)
Post by
pelf
I know I'm often a fan of brevity to a fault. What they said is what I was implying. It's not a mechanical problem; it's an implementation problem.
Post by
176018
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Kramp
In general farming, I don't really care about shreding. It's pretty much FF pull-mangle-mangle-mangle-bite The mobs dies way too fast to take the time to get to them in stealth.
But in PvPs, the hit box was always a problem. I've eard rumors from feral beta-testers saying that issue was
FINALLY
resolved.
All feral pvp players will aggree: It's really sad to be kicked/pummeled/etc... by a guy 10 feet away from us while we need to put our head between 2 legs to land an attack.
Post by
Sgtpain
I guess some of us don't have the luxery of having a player turn their back for us to get a clean back shot. Doesn;t anyone in your BG jump around hysterically? Or do they all just run away to let you shred them?
in most cases, the other player won't let you get behind them and will continue jumping around until one of you is dead. Pretty much the only time I have clear shred openings is when I open up with a pounce and even then, I might only get two in.
As for raids, well, let's just say, that the tank wasn't just moving a little, he was actually going in circles at one point. xD Several times, he turned the mobs completely around, not just once, but two and three times. For some mobs, the positioning seems to be sensitive enough that a slight move puts me ni the wrong place and I dont realize it for a moment. Oh, right, I should be watching...btw, your mangle just ran out and your rip is ticking away without the buff...better watch that closer next time. in other words, my eyes do have to leave the mob for just a moment here and there.
Post by
Kramp
In pvp, I use 2 kinds of gameplay: hit and run and surviving.
Hit and run is for big melees: I stealth, pick a squishy target or a dangerous healer and pounce-ff-mangle-shred. I keep shreding until he notices me then throw a Rip. If he's not dead, I run until I am focused anymore I pick another target, stealth if I can or simply mangle-shred right away.
Surviving is mainly for 1v1. I'll prefer dots, stuns, heals and bear armor over pure zerg.
Stealth If I can, Pouce-FF-Mangle-shred-Rip-Moonfire. The rest depends on the classes
I am facing. If it's a melee, I switch to bear and the battle is almost won and if I got any problems, I can always:
Bash-Cyclone-Heals
Bash-Travel form-Instant hots
Feral Charge-Travel form-hots
etc...
If it's clothie or a hunter, ill stay in cat and keep my CP for maim ( waiting until the last second before shredding while gives you a shorter CD before the next maim ). The tactics will be change depending on the class ( switching to bear if a hunter pops TBW. If a mage is casting water elemental, ill shut down mage with cyclone or maim then kill ele, etc... )
Killing a healer is probably the most annoying thing to do as a feral druid. I simply try to interrupt all heals and use cyclone to wait for stuns and silences cooldowns. But with hots, earth shields and shields, they can easily survive my dps if they play smart.
Post by
Kaitain
I guess some of us don't have the luxery of having a player turn their back for us to get a clean back shot. Doesn;t anyone in your BG jump around hysterically? Or do they all just run away to let you shred them?
in most cases, the other player won't let you get behind them and will continue jumping around until one of you is dead. Pretty much the only time I have clear shred openings is when I open up with a pounce and even then, I might only get two in.
Players jump around like lunatics to stop you getting shreds in because they know if they don't they will fail. Ways to make them fail:
Pounce - get a shred in.
Maim frequently so you can shred as much as possible.
Let the player target someone else! Shred their ass off.
With all casters (resto druids aside) you really should be able to outmanoeuvre them and get shreds in.
Bash and Maim are your best friends for melee players who are adept at fast movement.
As for raids, well, let's just say, that the tank wasn't just moving a little, he was actually going in circles at one point. xD Several times, he turned the mobs completely around, not just once, but two and three times. For some mobs, the positioning seems to be sensitive enough that a slight move puts me ni the wrong place and I dont realize it for a moment. Oh, right, I should be watching...btw, your mangle just ran out and your rip is ticking away without the buff...better watch that closer next time. in other words, my eyes do have to leave the mob for just a moment here and there.
Your UI and config can help you with this sort of thing. I use Power Auras addon because it lets me have what is essentially a Head-Up-Display for buffs and debuffs. You can have a graphic, as big as you want/need, around your character that displays when the Mangle debuff has run out. i.e. you can be looking directly at the mobs in order to keep your positioning perfect, and still know exactly when your debuffs are up (Mangle and FF for a feral). I've also seen addons like DHUD where all energy and combo point information is located around your character onscreen. This would be useful if you find your eyes diverted too often.
If you also have mangle shred and rip keybound so that you don't need move your hand from your movement keys (at all), then what you are describing is delightfully easy. Most melee DPS players enjoy that they have to move around while DPSing.
Tbh if you have trouble staying behind mobs in PvE i can see how you would find shredding in PvP near impossible. Trust me though that it is quite possible.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Blightman
Sure, all melee dps should be behind the target for best dps, but, we are the ONLY class that REQUIRES being behind the target to do good dps.
Yeah, those darn rogues can...Oh wait same issue there.
Seriously every melee DPS class has a DPS drop when moving back to front because of Parry/Dodge/Block.
As for raids, well, let's just say, that the tank wasn't just moving a little, he was actually going in circles at one point. xD Several times, he turned the mobs completely around, not just once, but two and three times.
Sounds like you need to train your tank to not run in circles.
Post by
Sgtpain
Yeah, those darn rogues can...Oh wait same issue there.
Seriously every melee DPS class has a DPS drop when moving back to front because of Parry/Dodge/Block.
.
Actually, the highest dps rotation for a rogue does not require being behind the target. Lastly, mobs can still dodge when you are behind them. ;)
Reguardless, although melee should be behind the target, it's NOT REQUIRED FOR ANY OTHER DPS CLASS.
If sinister strike were made so you had to be behind the target, would that be ok with all of the rogues here?
Post by
Lightrain
I know in raids i just watch where the hunters pets are standing and move there as I cant always tell which way a mob is facing.
I reckon if they buffed mangle (cat form mangle that is) to the point where shred is only better with mangles debuff (or close enough to that) then allot of the pvp and solo issues would be resolved.
Next thing we know, they are gonna make mut rogues able to use it in front of the target... Nah, the mechanics are fine, the player just needs to learn how to deal with it. Being a leather melee, we
should
always be behind the target. Being in front of the target is dangerous.
Post by
Sgtpain
I know in raids i just watch where the hunters pets are standing and move there as I cant always tell which way a mob is facing.
I reckon if they buffed mangle (cat form mangle that is) to the point where shred is only better with mangles debuff (or close enough to that) then allot of the pvp and solo issues would be resolved.
Next thing we know, they are gonna make mut rogues able to use it in front of the target... Nah, the mechanics are fine, the player just needs to learn how to deal with it. Being a leather melee, we
should
always be behind the target. Being in front of the target is dangerous.
There are times when you think youa re behind the target, but in fact, you are not. if you're not a class that uses a skill that you need to be behind the target ALL the time, then you have no idea what I am talking about or the issue.
Let me take you into a raid, pull 3+ mobs, have the dps AoE them so you can barely see the mobs due to so many spells and attacks going on, then I will start moving them around alot.
I believe that the issue is a tanking one in this case. When I need to move 5+ times on a single pull because of the tank moving all the time, then I don;t think I am the issue. I have tanked this same material and never had to move that much. You thnk that mages who are trying to use blizzard on a group of mobs would like it if I moved them out of the AoE area every time they started casting? Perhaps I should do that, then tel them that Lighttrain says to deal with it.
Post by
Blightman
Yeah, those darn rogues can...Oh wait same issue there.
Seriously every melee DPS class has a DPS drop when moving back to front because of Parry/Dodge/Block.
.
Actually, the highest dps rotation for a rogue does not require being behind the target. Lastly, mobs can still dodge when you are behind them. ;)
Reguardless, although melee should be behind the target, it's NOT REQUIRED FOR ANY OTHER DPS CLASS.
If sinister strike were made so you had to be behind the target, would that be ok with all of the rogues here?
Yes it is required for other DPS classes. Just as all druids don't spec kittycat to DPS not all rogues are combat swords spec:
Mut rogues use mutilate which requires being behind the target
Combat dagger build rogues use backstab which requires being behind the target
Post by
Lightrain
Hehe, I agree, if the tank is moving around that much, I would be annoyed to hell too. I have off tanked and dps'd kara a few times on my druid, and generally I don't have the issue. I did have the issue of seeing the target, yes. When there is 1 mob, and 6 toons/pets on it at random spots, it's hard to see the tank too. As I said, after one message, I move. I'm not saying anyone is perfect, and I've ran into the issues they mentioned above, where I'm chasing someone and litterally standing on top of them and not being able to hit them.
Doesn't it make that cool noise that tells you you can't use the spell you just tried too?
But yes, I think it's a tanking issue in this situation as well. When I'm tanking, I try to get all the mobs on one side of me. Dog piles aren't really all that fun when tanking either.
Post by
Monjaru
Yes it is required for other DPS classes. Just as all druids don't spec kittycat to DPS not all rogues are combat swords spec:
Mut rogues use mutilate which requires being behind the target
Combat dagger build rogues use backstab which requires being behind the target
Yeah, but since 90+% of raiding rogues
are
combat swords spec , these deficiencies of the other specs are a completely moot point to this argument.
Seriously, why do you think those builds are so rarely used? Because:
A. They require you to be behind the target to work effectively.
and
B. They
still
don't do as much dps.
The complaint here is that druids who want to dps in cat form don't have the option to simply respec differently in the feral tree to do better cat-form dps. Since a rogue
can
, and would have to be rather stubborn
not
to, a rogue's situation simply isn't comparable.
Post by
Blightman
Yes it is required for other DPS classes. Just as all druids don't spec kittycat to DPS not all rogues are combat swords spec:
Mut rogues use mutilate which requires being behind the target
Combat dagger build rogues use backstab which requires being behind the target
Yeah, but since 90+% of raiding rogues
are
combat swords spec , these deficiencies of the other specs are a completely moot point to this argument.
Seriously, why do you think those builds are so rarely used? Because:
A. They require you to be behind the target to work effectively.
and
B. They
still
don't do as much dps.
The complaint here is that druids who want to dps in cat form don't have the option to simply respec differently in the feral tree to do better cat-form dps. Since a rogue
can
, and would have to be rather stubborn
not
to, a rogue's situation simply isn't comparable.
Combat swords has about a 2% theoretical lead in DPS over combat daggers and mut builds, leaving both viable in raiding.
You have a second DPS spec, It's called MOONKIN, and it doesn't have the positional attack issues that feral does.
And before you post back "I don't want to spec moonkin" look back at your comment about rogues and your implication that they HAVE to spec combat swords if they want to raid as a DPSer.
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