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Defending Rend
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Post by
Arideni
@axhed:
While it may have been better with your weaponry at level 8, you didn't factor in the weapon's damage for Heroic Strike. Rend bases it's damage on your weapon just as Heroic Strike does, yet you didn't factor in the weapon damage for Heroic Strike in your comparison.
That probably in itself makes your comparison invalid, but beyond that it is in fact rage efficient. However, this relies solely on the duration.
At level 8, you're using Rend (rank 1) which has a duration of 9 seconds. Of course that's feasible, but rank 2 at level 10 is 12 seconds & it keeps going up with each rank. The numerical rank, as it increases, directly affects its usefulness & practicality.
I stopped using Rend around 12-14 & started using Heroic Strike. This becomes a practical reality by taking Imp. Heroic Strike (your primary ability for the first 39 levels). This is, of course, also impossible at levels 8 through 11. It's okay, though because Rend really sees it's drop around level 16 (coincidentaly the same level you gain a new Heroic Strike). In my opinion, this shifts the focus from Rend completely as it no longer deals enough innate damage to outweigh Heroic Strike (armor could change all this, but honestly...I'm not theorycrafting on Rend, I mean really).
I tried applying Rend to creatures as they ran away in an effort to fight a new creature while the old one slowly died (this was done around levels 14-15). I applied Rend to a gnoll around 3% HP, fleeing for his life. I continued the battle against another foe. "Rend & forget," I thought — wrong. Rend didn't kill the mob. Instead, he came back & began to pound on me again. A single blow from my two-hand disposed of him easily. It would have also resulted in less damage taken, at least for this scenario.
I remember just sitting there while fighting another gnoll & thinking, "Tick (7 damage)...Tick (7 damage)...Tick (7 damage) - Why won't this dude die? He has like no HP anyway."
These were my observations as I remember them.
Post by
inmediasres
This topic was the reason i went after damage meters that actualy do something more than simply measuring who had done the most damage in raid or party (which is still holy grail for about 99% of players, and dont conclude too fast that you arent one of them :) )
Arideni proposed one, and I ended up using "recount". But still, tnx for idea.
I would recomend damage meter like "recount" to all of you - to find out which ability "actualy makes the damage". I am after understanding game mechanics, and all the warriors formulas, but you always need some "experimental data".
tbh, one gram of practice is still worth more than a ton of theory... and recount settles dilema like after 2 quests done :)
Post by
Arideni
The one thing I did not do during my experiences was take numeric records of my accounts. I instead deducted conclusions based on my observations & there is no theorycraft (at present) to support it. However, I was also not aiming to perform theorycraft.
I agree strongly with the use of a proper damage meter, such as apparently Recount or SW_Stats, any meter which can record abilities & where the numbers come from. Excellent points, inmediasres.
Post by
161777
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
axhed
@axhed:
While it may have been better with your weaponry at level 8, you didn't factor in the weapon's damage for Heroic Strike. Rend bases it's damage on your weapon just as Heroic Strike does, yet you didn't factor in the weapon damage for Heroic Strike in your comparison.
That probably in itself makes your comparison invalid, but beyond that it is in fact rage efficient. However, this relies solely on the duration.
no, you only count the bonus damage for heroic strike at low levels because the white hit would have happened anyway.
say you start out with 15 rage...
if you don't cue heroic, you do 21 damage and gain 6 rage, ending with 21 rage
if you do cue heroic, your next hit will be for 28 damage, and you'll have 0 rage after.
furthermore, at the lower levels, imp rend is waaay better than imp heroic on a point-for-point basis, because three points in rend ups the damage by 75%, while three points in heroic reduces the rage cost from 21 to 18.
now keep in mind, the best way to use this is to pull 2-3 mobs at a time and rend each in turn. three mobs beating on you will give you plenty of rage for cleaves and tclaps etc. once the rends start to fall off, reapply as necessary. this is actually very effective sword and board style.
with maxed first aid, a troll's blood pot for health regen, and food buffs for spirit i was able to pull 2-3 at a time, and one or two more after the first ones died. i gotta say it's really satisfying when a mage stops their grinding to watch you mow sh!t down.
keep in mind, this only applies for the low levels up til prolly 30 or so, when you can spec into imp slam and sweeping strikes.
Post by
Arideni
I'll remain receptive to your theory about Rend & 3v1 mobs for leveling with a shield, but understand I personally did not observe the same leveling with a two-handed weapon to 20.
What I determined was that Imp. Heroic Strike meant another huge hit, especially when coupled with Imp. Charge (a leveling talent). By 20, this made back-to-back Heroic Strikes a reality & really crushed the mobs quickly (with Anger Management).
Back in the mid-teens, every other swing was a Heroic Strike & even without Cruelty, every other creature was dying in 2 or 3 hits (one or two of those swings being Heroic Strike).
I'll have to get back & do some actual testing when I get my PC fixed. I actually ordered a bunch of parts & the motherboard seems to have an issue recognizing my SATA hard drive when I reboot (detects the drive fine when first powering on). Guess I'll be delaying my return for a couple months (gonna need a new CPU when I upgrade again).
Post by
doublediamond410
Let's shut this thing down. Since Lvl51 (when I made this post) and using damage meters, it should be clear to us that, although useful at lower levels, Rend's dps is inversely proportional to the player's level and generally isn't worth the talent points spent (which players will find more useful elsewhere as they level unless they have a time frame in mind to remove said talent points from Improved Rend).
Post by
Lorkin
The only use for rend that I have found is spamming it to raise weapon skill.
As for rogues, usually deep wounds is enough to keep them unstealthed.
Post by
163763
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Post by
Sakkura
rend can go up to 800 dmg over 21 because stuff like death wish,trinket s, orc ratial affect it / use it only on bear druids ,other wars ,rougues,mobs not worth 3 point s on lvl 70 but for leveling it s 2 cheep 2 pass
Death wish, trinkets etc. also work on most other attacks at your disposal. So they can't really be used as an argument for the use of rend or improved rend.
Anyway, current information points to rend and improved rend being changed dramatically in WotLK in such a way that they may become more useful. So that may render this whole discussion moot.
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121059
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97665
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