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Hate for the Retribution Paladins?
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Post by
CoroHD
Do not underestimate how much mana one simple judgement of wisdom regens for the entire raid, it's a lot more than 2 innervates.
74 mana per proc. I believe that the PPM calculates out to 50% of attacks. Average wand speed is 1.5, or ~40 attacks per minute. If you get a perfect 50%, that's 20 * 74, or 1480 mana per minute. Over a 6-minute fight, that's a recovery of 8880 mana.
Because all the caster dpsers in your raid are wanding to do dps right?
Post by
xaratherus
Statement edited because I let my brain get ahead of my fingers.
Post by
CoroHD
The choice is obvious.
Yup. Whomever is available - or perhaps whatever friend happens to be online with the sufficient gear.
Unless of course you like to say, "Screw friendship, long live progress." If so, I'm glad I'm in my guild and not yours. Serious raid may be serious business - but if the only goal is to succeed at progression at all costs, camaraderie and friendship be damned, then you can seriously keep it.
What does this have to do with friendship? The discussion is about whether a ret pally is worth bringing to a raid, not whether or not your best friend plays one.
BTW, I'm in a casual guild that only raids twice a week, so try not to play the hardcore card.
Post by
xaratherus
Because all the caster dpsers in your raid are wanding to do dps right?
Okay, disregard wanding. 50% of your attacks during a 1-minute period are going to proc SoW - or that's the way the Judgment is designed. That includes spells, not just wanding or auto-attacking, at least according to WoWWiki and Elitistjerks.
Let's say that you've got a spell rotation that would average out to an attack speed of 3.0 seconds. That's 20 attacks per minute, or 10 procs of JoW at 74 mana per proc - lower, but still 740 mana regened per minute, or 4440 mana over the course of that 6-minute battle.
Assuming that all your casters have that same speed of spell rotation (which I don't think is an unfair assumption), and you've got approximately 8 mana-based DPS in your group, that's 35520 mana regened for the entire raid over the course of our hypothetical 6-minute battle.
What does this have to do with friendship? The discussion is about whether a ret pally is worth bringing to a raid, not whether or not your best friend plays one.
BTW, I'm in a casual guild that only raids twice a week, so try not to play the hardcore card.
My apologies. I do have friends who play Ret Paladins (I toy around with it in my spare time on my healadin) who very often get passed over for the very reasons you're noting, and it's sometimes hard not to be personal about it. I'm in a casual guild as well (only raiding two days a week). Consider that statement retracted and in poor taste.
Post by
CoroHD
Because all the caster dpsers in your raid are wanding to do dps right?
Okay, disregard wanding. 50% of your attacks during a 1-minute period are going to proc SoW - or that's the way the Judgment is designed. That includes spells, not just wanding or auto-attacking, at least according to WoWWiki and Elitistjerks.
Let's say that you've got a spell rotation that would average out to an attack speed of 3.0 seconds. That's 20 attacks per minute, or 10 procs of JoW at 74 mana per proc - lower, but still 740 mana regened per minute, or 4440 mana over the course of that 6-minute battle.
Assuming that all your casters have that same speed of spell rotation (which I don't think is an unfair assumption), and you've got approximately 8 mana-based DPS in your group, that's 35520 mana regened for the entire raid over the course of our hypothetical 6-minute battle.
A much more reasonable number. However, that still doesn't change that spriests are returning mana, locks can lifetap, mages can evocate, moonkins can innervate, ele shamans have mana spring, and any caster in the group with a resto shaman has mana tide. The 4440 mana over 6 minutes is barely less than 62 mp5. Noticeable? Yes, but you get a better average Mp5 from just drinking mana pots on cooldowns (average 100 mp5). The mana and health returns are nice but on the average raid encounter its not going to mean the difference between a wipe and a down.
Post by
65116
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Post by
xaratherus
However, that still doesn't change that spriests are returning mana, locks can lifetap, mages can evocate, moonkins can innervate, ele shamans have mana spring, and any caster in the group with a resto shaman has mana tide.
At the same time, Lifetap and Evocate only help the Warlock or Mage in question; Innervate is on a 6-minute cooldown (thus a "once-per-battle" use) and only helps the target upon which it is cast; and SPriest regen and Mana Spring and Tide totems only aid the 5 people in the party with that character.* Judgments help the entire raid (as long as the debuffed enemy is the primary target). Chain-chugging pots is okay, as long as you don't want to use another pot with a shared cooldown.
I know that several of the most-progressed guilds on my server bring along Rets for the combination of DPS and utility they bring to the raids. That might not be true of all servers. And I'm not saying that Ret couldn't use a buff. :P I just think that their overall utility can be overlooked - and disagree that they bring little to raid synergy compared to some other DPS class.
*At least until WotLK
Post by
CoroHD
Agreed, lifetaping/evocating locks/mages arn't doing dps. Agreed, Mana spring and tide, as well as vampiric embrace only effect one group. Agreed, innervate only effects one person, and casters could use destro pots instead of mana pots.
Lets assume then, that the additional 4440 mana over 6 minutes means the difference between not having to mana pot and being able to use destro potions. Thats only an average of +15 spelldmg over the fight. Lets assume then, that the locks never have to lifetap during a 6 min fight, and would have otherwise done 10 lifetaps for 15 seconds of not dpsing. At 2.5k dps thats nearly 40k dmg. Lets assume then, that the mages never have to evocate during a 6 min fight. Evocate = 8 seconds (less with haste), and at 2.5k dps thats 20k dmg.
So lets assume you have a total of 2 locks and 2 mages. Add another 30k damage from the destro potions effect over 6 mins. 150k damage saved by 4440 mana over a 6 min fight. Obviously this is a pretty high estimate, but I'm trying to make a point here
Lets assume the ret's personal dps is 1800. The prot pally is throwing down imp crusader, and the ret's sact accounts for another 200 dps, so the rets total raid dps is 2k.
Replace the ret with a 2.5k dps hunter. 150k damage lost over the fight by the locks and mages. 2k lost by the ret. So the increased personal dps of the hunter over the pally is 500 dps. 500 dps over 360 seconds is 180k damage, which results in a NET INCREASE of 30k damage over the same period of time.
And that doesn't even include the hunters +3% damage from ferocious inspiriation. Replace hunter with lock/mage/rogue for the same effect.
Post by
24122
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Post by
65116
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Post by
131584
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Post by
Philmckraken
What exaclty are you trying to prove Coro?
Coro likes to quote from the "great big guide to raiding," a dusty tome that is bound in thick leather, locked with a bronze clasp, and is written in an ancient language that very few people can understand. It's sort of like the Roman Catholic Bible, in the sense that even though much of the information contained therein is of questionable validity or just plain made up, millions of people adhere to its words as if it really were the absolute truth.
The truth is, there is no specific formula or recipe for raiding success. Some roles can be filled by multiple classes, but some are better at it than others. Certain encounters do require a group to contain specific classes with specific abilities, but it's not set in stone. The first time I went into Kara, I was OT, and stood and watched the Maiden fight. At the time, I was told that paladins just couldn't tank that one. 2 weeks later, I was back, this time as the MT, and we one-shot her. The point here is that while there may be a "best" or "recommended" way to do something, it does not mean that other methods will also succeed.
So, having said that, the only thing that SK gaming proved with their amazing world-1st downing of Kil'jaeden is that it is possible to defeat him without a Paladin, which does not necessarily mean that they are unnecessary for end-game raiding, However, many players in the WoW community jumped all over this little fact and take it as gospel, much like the idiots who flock to some Central American village to worship a tortilla, because it looks like there's a picture of Jesus on it.
Post by
xaratherus
However, many players in the WoW community jumped all over this little fact and take it as gospel, much like the idiots who flock to some Central American village to worship a tortilla, because it looks like there's a picture of Jesus on it.
If you look closely, the salsa to his right is holding a knife, and the cheese on his left looks like Mary Magdalene!
Post by
Laihendi
don't worry i still have faith in ret paladins! <3 i plan on making one soon... but he'll have to be a belf for SoB, so i'll have to start on a new server :-/
Post by
CoroHD
What exaclty are you trying to prove Coro?
Coro likes to quote from the "great big guide to raiding," a dusty tome that is bound in thick leather, locked with a bronze clasp, and is written in an ancient language that very few people can understand. It's sort of like the Roman Catholic Bible, in the sense that even though much of the information contained therein is of questionable validity or just plain made up, millions of people adhere to its words as if it really were the absolute truth.
The truth is, there is no specific formula or recipe for raiding success. Some roles can be filled by multiple classes, but some are better at it than others. Certain encounters do require a group to contain specific classes with specific abilities, but it's not set in stone. The first time I went into Kara, I was OT, and stood and watched the Maiden fight. At the time, I was told that paladins just couldn't tank that one. 2 weeks later, I was back, this time as the MT, and we one-shot her. The point here is that while there may be a "best" or "recommended" way to do something, it does not mean that other methods will also succeed.
So, having said that, the only thing that SK gaming proved with their amazing world-1st downing of Kil'jaeden is that it is possible to defeat him without a Paladin, which does not necessarily mean that they are unnecessary for end-game raiding, However, many players in the WoW community jumped all over this little fact and take it as gospel, much like the idiots who flock to some Central American village to worship a tortilla, because it looks like there's a picture of Jesus on it.
Ummm... No.
@ Dobbel: The thread is about why people "hate" Rets. Though I don't hate Rets, I've given my honest reasons for not thinking they are worth having in a raid.
It all boils down to:
1: Imp seal of the crusader is worth bringing a ret over, but a prot pally (who is already in the raid anyways) can spec into it, so why bring a ret?
2: Imp sanctity aura isn't good enough to be worth replacing melee in the melee group, so they end up in groups where their imp sancitity aura is useless.
3. Their personal DPS is weak, and weaker because they don't end up in good melee groups because doing so gimps other melee more than it buffs the ret pally.
4: The amount of health and mana restored from a pally crusader striking judgements up is not worth losing the additional 500-1500 DPS from a hunter/mage/lock/rogue, or 250-350 Mp5 + 3x that in Hp5 from a Spriest, or totems/bloodlust from shammies.
Also, you get a triple word score for unnecessarily bashing Christians, or more specifically Catholics, TWICE (i'm neither btw), using the third boss in the easiest raid in TBC as an example of something hard (a month after TBC kara might have been serious business, its been 19 months now), and for implying that I think that what SK does is the end all be all (which I have done the exact opposite of). GG
Post by
78028
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Post by
87686
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Post by
xaratherus
they have no offensive spells (Crusader strike aside) they only have SoC and Crusader Strike and thats pretty much it
I think this is one of the core problems with Retadins. I love the concept, I love tooling around in my Ret gear, it's fun to raid as Ret occasionally - but the fact is most of a Ret's damage is "passive".
By passive, I mean that we auto-attack and hope SoC or SoB procs. JoC is nice - but is pretty useless against bosses since you can't stun them to get the higher burst damage from the Judgment. Other than slamming CS when it's cooled down, that's about it.
I'm hoping that with WotLK Retadins are given a larger set of active DPS abilities - but at the same time, I hope they stick with the entire "strength of the Light" theme and make the spells appropriate.
Maybe give Ret the ability to cast two spells while continuing to attack their target. ;) I'd be okay with pummeling away with SoC running and tossing out a Flash of Light at the Tank all at the same time...
Post by
65116
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
daboss40
I've played a ret pally for ages and have never respecced. This is my opinion.
The biggest problem that people have with ret pallies is that for the most part, they think that ret pallies don't do the same damage as other classes-- for the most part they are right. However, this has nothing to do with the design of the ret pally class itself, rather, the abilities of the people using them. A surprising amount of people who play as a ret pally dont fully understand how to tweak them to get the most out of them. What I mean is that It seems to me that most people either use ret pallies to PvP or to lvl. None of these requires that you take the time to gear specifically for a raiding environment. And we all know that a ret pally's dps is totally dependent on one thing: gear.
Ret paladins are THE most gear dependent class in the game. This means that until a ret pally is geared WELL, they WILL not produce the same DPS as a Mage, Hunter, Rogue etc. This makes the idea of getting into a group very hard. There is an upside to this though. Ret pallies happen to scale with good gear better than ANY other class in the game as well. In order to get a ret pally to scale well, one must understand how ret pallies do damage. 90% of ret pally dmg is a DIRECT result of weapon damage. Melee dmg usually accounts for 40%, while SoB/C and CS account for 20% each.
Although it would make sense to stack AP and get a huge'n'slow weapon, most ret pallies dont consider this. They instead itemize for other things like stamina. Even worse, they get the S1 or S2 honor gear and call themselves 'EPICED OUT'! This might get you by for the moment, but PvP gear is tailored to PvP (stamina, res, crit) and not PvE (Str, hit, crit, more Str). While stats like stamina are important, they dont have the same impact on your dps like raw strength does. This is a big reason ret pallies dont do too well in heroic/raid environments while compared to other classes.
Alot of the hate for ret pallies isnt all the fault of ret pallies though. In the last few patches, BIG changes have been made to allow for more damage by ret pallies. Most ret pallies have failed to take advantage of it and therefore, these improvements go unnoticed to the rest of the WoW world.
For those who dont have any love for ret pallies, they either:
1) are still clinging to old stereotypes (how sad... this is 2.4, things have changed...)
2) Never played a ret pally past dinging 70 (you have no opinion to me...)
3) Have never seen a TRUE ret pally play. (dunno what to tell ya...)
I hope people take the time to understand to understand how a ret pally can be effective in a PvE environment and stop the ignorant RETLOL banter. If blizz thought the ret spec was so useless, they wouldnt have put it in.
Use you brain, not your mouth,
Jamizzi
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