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Hate for the Retribution Paladins?
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Post by
carpen
well, ret pallies are better then they once were, i say that a raid group needs atleast one ret pally, the time that i was ret (prot pally) for leveling, i came across some ignorance, but then again thats what thrall comes with, id love to go ret just for pvp, since im bored out of my mind healing in pvp, but i allways find it fun when people call you crap, and they are crap, or you out dps/healing done them
Post by
134704
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Post by
65116
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Post by
Izichial
the statement, I don't wanna work, I don't wanna have to tank, I don't wanna have to heal, I just wanna sit back and dps.
Whoa, you're right, ret paladins are the ONLY (~)class in the game that can possibly be affected by this statement! Damn them selfish twats. How dare they!
Wait, what.
Post by
167895
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Post by
150555
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Post by
xaratherus
CIRCLE ONE
(Ret Paladin / Mage / Warlock / Rogue / Hunter / Enhancement and Elemental Shaman / Fury and Arms Warrior / Shadow and Disc Priest) to me is simply the statement, I don't wanna work, I don't wanna have to tank, I don't wanna have to heal, I just wanna sit back and dps.
Fixed that for you.
By your argument, every single DPS class is just as selfish because they rolled a DPS class rather than a tank or healer. I mean, if the Ret Paladin can easily reroll a Hunter to DPS, then a Hunter can just as easily reroll a Prot Paladin to tank, right?
Post by
CoroHD
A prot paladin with all the necessary tanking talents has points left over that can be put into imp crusader.
Sanctity aura's +2% dmg is pretty negligible, especially at lower gear levels, and can actually result in a raid dps loss if placed in the wrong group.
The +12% to a prot pallys holy dmg is ok, but only if your raid is threat capped with the pally tanking. If your raid is threat capped, tell the pally to either flask for +dmg, oil for +dmg, or to press his consecration/holy shield buttons harder.
IMO rets are good for pvp, but their viability for pve isn't quite there yet.
Post by
65116
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Post by
CoroHD
A prot paladin with all the necessary tanking talents has points left over that can be put into imp crusader.
Sanctity aura's +2% dmg is pretty negligible, especially at lower gear levels, and can actually result in a raid dps loss if placed in the wrong group.
The +12% to a prot pallys holy dmg is ok, but only if your raid is threat capped with the pally tanking. If your raid is threat capped, tell the pally to either flask for +dmg, oil for +dmg, or to press his consecration/holy shield buttons harder.
IMO rets are good for pvp, but their viability for pve isn't quite there yet.
Quite a few guilds use ret paladins for progress raids on Brutallus just for their raid DPS increase. If that's not viable, then I don't know what is.
Oh, and 2% of 2k dps isn't negligible, especially when it's 2% for 4 people at 2k dps.
They use the ret for imp crusader + extra blessing. Brut is all about maximizing dps, so you can just have your prot pally who normally has imp crusader get mage ported to shatt to respec ret with guild money and lock summoned back for brut, and do the same back prot when brut is done. Theres no need to have a designated ret.
2% of 2k dps is negligible, even when its 2% for 4 people at 2k dps.
2000 X 0.02 = 40
40 X 4 = 160
if that 5 man group is each doing 2k (for a total of 10160 group dps), then 160 is only ~1.6% of that groups contribution to raid dps.
Assuming a group of enhancement/warrior/rogue/rogue/X, having a third rogue in the last spot will be a better contribution to raid dps because his boost in personal dps will outweigh the pallies boost in personal dps AND the boost from imp sanct.
Post by
65116
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Post by
CoroHD
160 DPS over a fight of 6 minutes, 360 seconds.
360 * 160 = 57,600.
Yep, totally negligeble if you see how many raids wipe on brutallus at 1% because of enrage.
That doesn't change the fact that by having a rogue there the rogue would do more than 57600 dmg.
Post by
65116
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Post by
CoroHD
You know what, screw it.
Many end game raiding guilds use ret paladins, that means they are viable in some way, like it or not.
If you don't want to use them, or just don't like them because you think it's a pvp spec, that's your problem.
People have proven how viable ret paladins are, if you are to simply not see that, then I have nothing to say to you. Go back to your vanilla wow, welcome to TBC.
The world first Kil'Jaeden kill (SK) had a subtlety rogue in the raid. That might mean sub rogues are raid viable, but that doesn't mean that sub rogues are raid optimal.
A Ret pally brings +3% crit to the entire raid, which i've seen quoted as being around 450ish raid dps though that seems a bit low to me, and +2% dmg to their party, which varies in effect from 0 to 200 raid dps.
Both of these would make a Ret pally worth bringing in a raid. HOWEVER, a prot pally can spec into improved seal of the crusader without hurting his own tanking, and in doing so defeats and consolidates the biggest reason to bring a ret pally. A prot pally with imp seal + practially any dps class > a ret pally.
If imp seal of the crusader was deep enough in the ret tree that a prot couldn't take it without gimping their tanking, then there would be reason to bring a ret. Otherwise the benefit of bringing one in addition to a prot w/ imp seal just doesn't outweigh the benefit of bringing any non ret dps class instead.
Post by
65116
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
CoroHD
It's quite obvious that a prot pally + dpser > ret pally.
Don't forget a ret pala also brings judgement of wisdom to the table. Or are you having a holy pala judge that every 20 seconds?
You could do that, or you could just have an Spriest or two in the caster groups, or have druids innervate whoevers oom, or have resto shammies drop mana tides, in addition to being able to chug mana pots if you aren't already.
The point is that the greatest utility of a ret pally can be consolidated into a player thats already in the raid anyways (or should be), so that kinda defeats the point of bringing a ret.
Post by
65116
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Post by
Sakkura
Do you realise you're saying that one person can easily be replaced by 5? Well, no *!@# Sherlock.
Innervate has a 6 min CD, so you can have 1 per druid in the raid, and since it's a bad idea to stack druids, you'll have maybe 2.
It's also a bad idea to stack shadowpriests, so you'll only have 1, maybe 2 max for 1 or 2 groups of the raid, that leaves 3 to 4 groups without their manaregen.
They're saying that eg. 5 people
that will already be in the raid for other reasons
can replace the ret paladin.
Most raids have at least 2 druids if not more; you will want at the very least one feral druid and a resto druid. 2 shadowpriests is less of a given (especially later in progression, where their personal DPS just gets left ever more behind other classes), but still a fairly common sight.
Post by
xaratherus
Do not underestimate how much mana one simple judgement of wisdom regens for the entire raid, it's a lot more than 2 innervates.
74 mana per proc. I believe that the PPM calculates out to 50% of attacks. Average wand speed is 1.5, or ~40 attacks per minute. If you get a perfect 50%, that's 20 * 74, or 1480 mana per minute. Over a 6-minute fight, that's a recovery of 8880 mana.
Not to mention that the Ret Paladin can refresh the judgments of every other Paladin in the raid - so your Holy Paladin can run in, judge Seal of Light, and bingo, your Ret Paladin is helping to heal the raid at the same time he's doing DPS. Since JoL is the same proc rate as JoW, then we can use the same numbers as above, plugging in the 95 HP instead of 74 Mana, or 20 * 95 = 1900 health per minute, and 11400 health over a 6-minute fight.
And as Dobbel said, that same Ret Paladin is increasing his party's DPS output by 56k for the 6-minute battle, as well as his own damage output - and can (if the tank isn't a Paladin) keep up a constant ImpJoC to up the raid's crit chance by 3%.
So yes, a Rogue does have a higher DPS output. Let's see him restore 8k mana, 11k health, buff his overall party's output and raise the entire raid's crit chance by 3%,
at the same time
.
Post by
CoroHD
So from all your posts I can make this.
Yes, a ret paladin can easily be replaced by a protection paladin with imp sotc, a shadowpriest or 2 (mind you, those do even less dps than a well geared ret pala), and a couple of druids innervating.
Do you realise you're saying that one person can easily be replaced by 5? Well, no *!@# Sherlock.
Innervate has a 6 min CD, so you can have 1 per druid in the raid, and since it's a bad idea to stack druids, you'll have maybe 2.
It's also a bad idea to stack shadowpriests, so you'll only have 1, maybe 2 max for 1 or 2 groups of the raid, that leaves 3 to 4 groups without their manaregen.
Do not underestimate how much mana one simple judgement of wisdom regens for the entire raid, it's a lot more than 2 innervates.
False.
What your saying is that the utility brought by the ret pally can be replaced by 4-5 classes, and therefore its better to just bring a ret and get all the benefits.
What I'm saying is that the utility brought by the ret pally is already in the raid from 4-5 classes, and therefore theres no reason to bring a ret when you already have the benefits.
I'm looking at this from a 25th man perspective. Who will be the 25th guy in the raid. The prot pally in my guild has imp seal, and mana isn't an issue between mana pots and spriest regen. So the choice is whether to bring a ret pally with low personal dps and weak raid synergy, or bring a high personal dps class like a mage/lock/rogue/hunter or even another ele/enhance shaman for another bloodlust/more totems. The choice is obvious.
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