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Do you have more fun @70 epiced then you did on your first 60 in blues?
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Post by
Lemma
Arenas and t5 equivalent badge gear is what is killing this game.
/sign
Remove 2.4 badge loot. 2.3 badge loot was good enough as is.
/sign
Post by
103712
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148172
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107485
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Post by
AusSpyder
Personaly i love the fact that you dont have to raid for hours every single night to get epics. I applaud this with every bit of energy I have. Problem is, Blizzard takes it too far. They dont make the cost (usually the price is time) equal to the quality of the gear. Someone can spend months getting gear only to be fodder the second they leave there instance/raid/capital city.
You can spend months and months working towards your gear in PVE, and this is even if you get lucky, and in the end someone who has spent a small fraction of that time AFK, or performing terribly in a BG can get gear that makes yours worthless.
I'm all for people having the same quality gear as me without having to raid every night, but i dont think they should get it for little to no effort, and it certainly shouldnt be possible for someone to get it and not know there skill. there are multiple different ways for them to do this. rep grinds, quest lines, instances, and yes, PVP, but there gear shouldnt make mine worthless.
At the moment, if your in blues you may have spent 3-4 weeks questing/instancing to get so that you could enter kara, or even if you have been doing kara full clears, someone who has been doing 2 weeks of BG will massacre you with a couple pvp items/weapons
The days of 1 shotting someone with pom pyros and ambush left the second they added so much stamina, stop crediting this to resilience. A new to 70 toon in a full set of "... of the whale" greens wouldn't be 1shottable by any class in the game in any gear. All your people with your incredibly easy to get PVP epics defend resilience and your easy epics because you like massacring people in t4/t5 (and if you have a lot of pvp gear, sunwell geared people arent much more of a challenge) and refuse to accept that just maybe it might have divided the game. Just maybe our complaints are reasonable.
We spend MONTHS longer to get our gear and we may as well lay down and die to PVPers because of resilience. Your gear effectively makes everyone besides pvp grinders unable to PVP effectively anymore. You wont get 1shot, you could wear full greens and you wont get 1shot. They fixed
Fact is, if they did away with PVP arena rubbish, but they allowed good gear (such as badge loot) available from multiple diff sources, inc PVP, then you guys wouldn't have a legit reason to complain
As it is there is plenty of badge loot and PVE loot that is perfectly fine for PVP if resilience werent around.
resilience makes it that ONLY pvp gear is good for pvp
One last thing. Do any of you "Hardcore" PVP'ers disagree with me when i could say that someone could level to 70 (or buy one off ebay) unspec every single talent point they have, strip naked and stand around a battleground all day and STILL get an entire set of epic gear in a much shorter time than your average PVE player
The only reason many of us beat half you PVP clowns as it is is cause your truly rubbish at your classes. When we run into you that knows what your doing even slightly its like we have res sickness or something
Post by
Celdhyrean
I don't mind playing on a PvP server - but don't force me to have certain gear outside the arena's to PVE here. PvP server means PvP in arenas, bg, and all the rest of the world. The whole outside world is a PvP zone. You are trying to do PvE quests in a PvP zone. Nobody forces you to do them in PvP gear, but don't expect people to not jump on you. Either gear up, group, choose another time, do the quests near the NPC guards, ... solutions exist
I play on PvP server and never carry my PvP gear around with me (only take it out for arenas or bgs). I don't get ganked much because i know how to avoid them (even at normal times). And when i get ganked, i just run back. That's the price i chose to pay for playing how i'm playing.
Isn't it true that once upon a time, good gear meant a good player? No, it just meant you were in a good raid. Or that you had time for the old PvP titles
And that still holds true today.
I find it unnacceptable that a dps class is considered geared well enough for kara in their PvP blues with the couple BG epics they have, yet, as a tank, it's not acceptable.
"What is your hit rating?"
"I dont need hit rating, I have +500 spell damage"As already said, that due to stupid players not knowing what good gear is, not to the gear itself. 0 hit and 500 dmg is unacceptable for Karazhan, i had more pre-BC.
I can actually agree to some extent - resilience has made it so that if someone without pvp gear faces someone with, the victory is already decided in many cases.It's difficult to disagree when you present it like that, but you have to remember what the alternative was pre-BC : in PvP, when someone in PvP gear faced someone in T2 or more, the victory was already decided in many cases.
In favor of the PvE geared guy.
Pre-BC and in BC, you need gear to compete against a geared player. Now at least it is coherent (best PvP gear comes from PvP) and attainable by everybody (anybody can farm BGs, not everyone could find their way in T2 content.
--
As to the OPs initial question, i honestly wouldn't know. I had fun back there and still have fun now (else i wouldn't be here). I need to see new things now and then, so getting new places and gear is a good thing.
Post by
Laihendi
I completely agree with Nefarion
Post by
91169
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Post by
80366
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Post by
Aurlon
1) Nostalgia + being too hung up on the colour of items (blue or purple, who cares?) = this thread.
2) If people haven't discovered the reason they're making it easier and easier to get ever more powerful items they need to open their eyes. There is an expansion about to be released and to get use out the content that they have spent the last three years working on they're making it more accessible. It's happening now, it'll happen towards the end of WotlK and it'll happen in expansions in the future.
3) Did I mention Nostalgia? Pre-TBC, the highlight of your day was getting together enough people to get through an instance that took far too long (hello there BRD) and dropped terribly itemized loot. Thankfully Blizzard have learned from their mistakes and are making future instances shorter and the effort to reward ratio closer to what it should have always been. Contrary to popular belief to make a task rewarding doesn't have to involve it being a complete marathon grind and a total waste of everyone's time.
Post by
Celdhyrean
Also the raids PreBC were waaaay better. Impossible to reexperience at 70. I've done MC since hitting 70 and its just not the same. The thrill of getting a whole 40 people and making sure EVERY single one does their job, and then doing attempts and attempts and attempts over say, Razorgore, because our kiter died, or we forgot one egg. Downing a boss like that was the best feeling ever.I can understand what you say, but i don't agree at all.
Pre-BC, organizing raids was difficult simply because it was difficult to gather 40 people regularly. Appart from that, you could have bad players in the roster and that wouldn't matter much (except in the end-game raids maybe) as long as they were there for buffs, dispell and minimal dps.
The consequence was that there were less people downing bosses, making them seem more of a reward. First Vael kill for example was really a great feeling.
But on the other hand, at least on the raid leader/officer's side, keeping all that running was an incredible hassle.
I was on that side, and honestly i have no problems exchanging the artificial boosting to satisfaction from 40-man organisation difficulties (ie it's not the boss himself that is that difficult) with an easier to manage guild and raid format.
Post by
qwertydood
As for the impact of resilience it has ruined world PvP for those of us who don't PvP for gear. I was doing dailies last Saturday and the ganking and camping on the Isle was truly beyond belief. Players who had already finished their dailies in their S3s were happily crushing and camping those of us in non-PvP gear. It was ugly. So Blizzard apparently feels that to benefit from PVE dailies I should be forced to grind for PvP epics to allow me to complete them.
Saying that it's unfair that people who are geared for pvp can easily gank people who are geared for pve because of resilience is really silly statement, as they could just as easily say, "It's unfair that people who have PvP gear can't do TK or BT!". You just have to choose if you want to be a PvPer or PvEer and deal with it. You may be missing out on the arena fun, but they're missing out on the raids.
As for needing pvp gear to do dailies, thats just the way a PvP server goes. You WILL find that
PvP
gear is more useful on a
PvP
server. Go figure.
Post by
59670
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Post by
MrFredII
I don't mind playing on a PvP server - but don't force me to have certain gear outside the arena's to PVE here. PvP server means PvP in arenas, bg, and all the rest of the world. The whole outside world is a PvP zone. You are trying to do PvE quests in a PvP zone. Nobody forces you to do them in PvP gear, but don't expect people to not jump on you. Either gear up, group, choose another time, do the quests near the NPC guards, ... solutions exist
I play on PvP server and never carry my PvP gear around with me (only take it out for arenas or bgs). I don't get ganked much because i know how to avoid them (even at normal times). And when i get ganked, i just run back. That's the price i chose to pay for playing how i'm playing.
.
As for the impact of resilience it has ruined world PvP for those of us who don't PvP for gear. I was doing dailies last Saturday and the ganking and camping on the Isle was truly beyond belief. Players who had already finished their dailies in their S3s were happily crushing and camping those of us in non-PvP gear. It was ugly. So Blizzard apparently feels that to benefit from PVE dailies I should be forced to grind for PvP epics to allow me to complete them.
Saying that it's unfair that people who are geared for pvp can easily gank people who are geared for pve because of resilience is really silly statement, as they could just as easily say, "It's unfair that people who have PvP gear can't do TK or BT!". You just have to choose if you want to be a PvPer or PvEer and deal with it. You may be missing out on the arena fun, but they're missing out on the raids.
As for needing pvp gear to do dailies, thats just the way a PvP server goes. You WILL find that
PvP
gear is more useful on a
PvP
server. Go figure.
You both miss my point. - I don't object to the random ganking. I object to camping people who have little choice but to be there. The Isle provides the resource necessary for me to maintain raiding gold. Dailies exist because Blizzard totally screwed up the economics of the game and this is their bandaid. I need the gold to pay my raiding expenses. I have only so many hours I can play. So I need to do the dailies.
There is a very basic difference between world PvP where I get killed or maybe kill the other person. And having a group of people simply prevent me from playing. And telling me that this is "just how it is on a PvP server" fails to match up with experience before adding resilience to PvP gear created such a disparity. Back when the odds were more even camping was a lot less prevalent. BTW- I think you'll find that PvP gaer is equally useful on a PVE server where people go PvPing. I haven't bothered to check but I'm pretty sure its available there as well... GO FIGURE
Post by
154415
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Post by
Celdhyrean
I don't object to the random ganking. I object to camping people who have little choice but to be there.
QD : demon portal : there are NPCs around that can hand the attackers ass back to him if you're carefull about how far from them you go. Nagas and stuff : swim in the water, much less PvP there. Bombarding runs aren't too much of a problem, i've never been killed on the boats (i preventively change ship if too many red people arrive on mine). Dangerous zones are the last portal, knights and stuff killing, and first 2 quests.
And don't tell me that's the only part where you can do them, there are several at other places that work just as well and take less time than a quest with random drops and such (arming the wards).
And from the moment yo'ure camped on a quest, it's "time to complete" rises significantly, changing the order of priority in which you should do them (ie 1minute to go to hellfire peninsula is actually shorter than blindly trying to finish that quest despite the camper.
I don't think i missed your point, but my own point was that :
- you have solutions to avoid ganking while there (even if you don't wish to take the time to form a group)
- you have other places that will be more efficient in gold farming than the third of QD quests that are "dangerous". Do the easy/safe ones and go somewhere else for the rest.
Camping is never fun, but it's a part of a PvP server that you'll never get rid of. Be it done by PvE player when PvE gear is dominant or PvP player when PvP gear is dominant doesn't change a thing.
Before resilience you had a chance, yes. Even more of a chance if you were a raiding player and the opponent wasn't, because the PvP gear was just barely better than blues. Do you think that beating a PvP person through PvE gear was coherent ?
I don't think so, having a PvP person in PvP gear beat me in a PvP encounter seems much more logical. (and i'm a T6 raiding PvE carebear playing on a PvP server, not as if i had any personal bias).
What i have to do is NOT getting myself some PvP gear (i have a PvP set at the bank actually, but don't have any space for it when farming). I'm not there to PvP but to farm, so i learn to avoid them (and if possible trick them into getting shot down by guards).
What you're asking for is either :
a place on a PvP realm where you could farm gold free from any PvP interference but in the outside world for all the quests and stuff.
or to stand a chance against PvP geared players in your PvE gear
Players to stop camping others. Hahaha, good luck with that one.
There's no way we'd ever get any of that on PvP servers.
Post by
MrFredII
All my serious playing has been on PvP severs, since long before BC. I agree that camping
to some extent
is part of a PvP server, and has always been so. However the addition of resilience to the game has greatly increased the disparity. Before resilience PvP gear did enjoy an advantage over PvE gear for PvP. The top tier of PvP gear was comparable to T2 and superior to it for PvP. However in PvP situations the PvE gear could compete. The distinguishing difference was that PVE gear had resistances that PVP gear did not, ( PvP gear had more stam )and you needed those resistances for certain boss fights.
I was most seriously camped last weekend on the arming the wards quest. Yeah you can and I do avoid the campers as much as possible but its still annoying and there are times where there are campers at all the quest locations. Yeah the bombing quests are usually completable no matter what.
I'd cheerfully settle for either of these choices:
Change resilience so it works only in BGs and arenas
Put comparable amounts of to hit and resilience on both kinds of gear
IE: level the playing field. I don't mind if someone can get welfare epics in PvP that are every bit as useful in raiding because there will still be a lot of people who raid for the pleasure of raiding. I just want my raid gear to match up for world PvP.
Post by
130458
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Post by
MrFredII
This would be a step in the right direction. My only problem is that it would end up one sided. You, the raider, would be happy because not only do you still have your raid gear, but now you can stomp anyone trying to interfere with your farming. PvPers on the other hand would still be laughed at for trying to do anything PvE related in groups, just like they are now, +hit stats or not. I know this because of your 'welfare epics' line. It's not about stats, it's about you being better than some scrub PvPers.
I actually made the welfare epic comment because of the bias some people express about bringing people to raids who have PvP gear. The despite its lack of spell hit the lowest level epic PvP gear is pretty much across the board better than the greens and blues we went into Kara with in the first months of BC. The bias against PVP gear is presented as indicative of player skill, IMO the likely reason is that people are angry that its harder to get gear through raiding and that is somehow unfair. Thats crap. While I agree that BG gear is easier to get - so what. People raid for the pleasure of seeing the end game raid content, meeting the challenge, and gaining the resources to get to the next level (gear). For my money the vast majority of folks with arena gear earned it, and had to beat the other guys to get it. So clearly success in the arena means that the player has the skills for that type of play. Now does that mean that they are competent raiders?
I prefer raiding. Other than the occasional BG or attack on the other faction's city or town the only time I engage in PvP is when I get attacked while farming. Before the gear disparity that was an occasional event and camping was far less frequent, because I had a reasonable chance of defending myself. As for "stomping anyone interfering with my farming" my attitude if you get there first its yours. Provided that you have the same attitude there is always another mob/herb/mote. Its quicker and more productive to get the next one than fight over the last one.
PvP is a very different skill set than raiding. As a mage, I don't spec for PvP, I don't research class on class weaknesses, nor do I practice the skills for it. I know people who are excellent at both. Most of them are both hard core PvPer and hard core raiders and have the playing time to devote to both pursuits. Chuck Yeager maintained that if he was a better pilot, it was because he spent more time at it. Except for the rarest case, I would expect someone to be better at the aspect of the game they played the most.
I am not a better player than a PvPer nor worse. I am an accomplished raider. When I was able to devote the time I was in a raid instance 30 hours a week. Every week for months. That is why I'm good at the raiding skills demanded of my class, experienced in coordinated tactics, and I've lead my share of raids in my time. I don't expect to be as good at PvP as someone who devote 30+ hours a week to PVPing, nor should they expect to be as good at raiding as I am unless they have another 30 hours a week to raid. I want gear parity so that I can do the unpleasant parts of the game (dailies/farming) that pay for the parts I enjoy (raiding) in the least amount of time.
Anyway - hopefully blizzard will decide equalize the gear enough to eliminate the disparity.
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