This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
[Necro] Black Friday/Uploading Ads Update
Return to board index
Post by
perculia
Hey everyone,
Over the course of the day, we've been addressing community feedback about several ad-related issues on the site that were brought up on Battle.net, Reddit, etc. I wanted to post my latest reply here since there's been a lot of posts and I don't want things to get lost.
We've narrowed the upload issue down to several likely targets and disabled what we think is the top cause. The site devs will be continuing to test issues to confirm if they found the fix or not. Their thread with more details is here:
https://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=257920.2&p=4014096#p4014096
The whole content team feels really awful about how this played out because we really care about bringing quality data and content to the site and had set up a cool array of holiday content so we could have a few days off and enjoy traveling around.
Ads really suck and unfortunately this weekend we tried to implement a way to make them less intrusive since we knew Black Friday would bring heavier ads and we'd be out eating turkey with our families. This ended up with them loading more, because bad ads were shelved after they loaded, and this had unforeseen data requirements that we didn't anticipate.
Outside of Black Friday, Ad networks now aren't really regulated and they feel like they can get away with whatever since sites need them for profits. It sucks. It's partially why we lowered Wowhead Premium prices to $1 recently - in spite of having a full-time AdOps staff member communicate with the ad networks on nasty ads that should be removed, we were getting a number of complaints still and we wanted a more affordable option. We've gone through several providers in the past few years, after different ones were slow to address complaints on BlizzCon and Christmas.
At this point, we do need ads for the site to survive since we have a lot of unique and complicated features, like the flying tool and dressing room. We also try to design things with the users first in mind; for example, our localized databases aren't very profitable since they can't be monetized well with English ads, but they offer a huge service to a large part of our EU community and fansites, so we'll take the server costs and extra data processing time to keep that maintained.
One thing we want to try to do is reduce the number of ads; we made a layout change to another ZAM site, Lolking, and the site now loads faster than Wowhead after being consistently slower for years. This layout change was scheduled to happen on Wowhead in a few months, after certain ad campaigns finished, but we've bumped up the timing on it. We think in addition to the bug we're trying to track down, there's too many ads on the current layout and it amplifies things. Another thing we want to look at is changing how ads are set up on pages people spend hours on, like the artifact guide - this can chew through hundreds of potential ads and eventually leave you with unsavory ones that make scary noises during a fight :(
Finally, we've seen some people bring up the idea of a Wowhead-equivalent for Reddit gold for useful comments or guides; it's been cool to read about because part of our Premium revamp was rebuilding the system to be more modern, so there were fewer limitations and we could eventually do cool things like that. With the interest in that, it's something I'd want to prioritize creating.
Thanks for being patient with us - we know that people that are upset are coming from a place of concern and that they do really want to use the site. I have to catch a flight early tomorrow morning so I'm not sure how much more I can check in but my coworker Sas/Stephen is going to be monitoring the threads throughout the evening and see if the technical change we made has improved the upload situation.
Thanks again for bearing with me while I'm traveling back from the East Coast. TL;DR we've narrowed down the issue and are working on a fix, we've disabled the ads that caused the extra data for now.(##RESPBREAK##)2##DELIM##Ashelia##DELIM##To clarify: we've disabled the offending ads temporarily so the issue should not be happening right now, and are working on a long term fix.
Post by
alvraen
Thank you!
Post by
Brand
Much appreciated. I didn't want to stop coming to Wowhead because it would disconnect me from WoW. Hopefully these measures will help enable good usage once again. :)
Post by
Lyzoldas
Thottbot never had this problem, bring back Thottbot!
Just kidding, you guys do so much and are amazing! :D
Post by
Cynicale
Thanks for the update and honesty. You're such a valuable resource. Looking into going premium.
Post by
Peroxide
The whole content team feels really awful about how this played out because we really care about bringing quality data and content to the site
How do you care about bringing quality data and content while neglecting to view the actual site you were working on? Any of those developers assuming they had half a brain should have realized something was wrong within 10 seconds of viewing the site.
The fact that there was code implemented to actually try and obfuscate what was going on is even more suspect. Do you have any comments or excuses for that? Is this simply going to be blamed on Instart Logic as an outsider?
we tried to implement a way to make them less intrusive
Perhaps my definition differs, but a half page ad is far from being less intrusive than anything you've had previously.
Hope to see a reply.
Post by
Nulgar
How do you care about bringing quality data and content while neglecting to view the actual site you were working on? Any of those developers assuming they had half a brain should have realized something was wrong within 10 seconds of viewing the site.
Because those uploading ads only started in the last few days. And in general, ads shown vary over time.
The fact that there was code implemented to actually try and obfuscate what was going on is even more suspect. Do you have any comments or excuses for that? Is this simply going to be blamed on Instart Logic as an outsider?
Not to obfuscate, but to lessen the effect it has on users. And yes, this was addressed above.
Post by
Camillaline
Would it be possible to get this post on the frontpage of Wowhead for those who don't read the forums but might be expiriencing this problem? I only saw this post because of Twitter :)
Personally I haven't had any troubles with the site (or I haven't noticed), so I don't completely understand the problem, but I still appreciate the attention this is getting from the Wowhead staff <3
Also this convinced me to subscribe to Wowhead (this and the price cut ;) ), because a dollar subscribtion for a site, where I use and have used their tools and database regularly for the past ten years, I want to show my support. Also I kinda feel like I owe them, but in a good way, like a younger sister lending her sibling's bike for the past ten years without complaint and who now wants to bake them cookies hoping they'll lend you their car for the next ten. (More reasons: no adds, supporting future content etc.)
Post by
WindsingerEU
If you don't like ads but really like wowhead and it's content. Then why don't people go premium? It's only a small price nowadays anyway
Support their work imho ❤
Post by
Konig
Are you going to pay for the overage fees on my ISP plan?
I'm 40GB over and yesterday I had 60GB remaining for the next 12 days. More than enough.
A "sorry our bad" doesn't change the fact that you've cost me $1/GB that I went over my plan.
I'll admit, I keep a lot of Wowhead tabs open. Things I'm interested in doing, whatever it may be. I probably had 30-40 tabs open when I read the reddit thread this morning and realized I had 3 emails from my ISP about my overages. "Unlimited" internet with a lovely $1/GB overage fee.
This is completely unacceptable. You should be ashamed of yourself for letting it get this out of hand.
Post by
anahka23
I sincerely hope that you guys realize that any database site can make a talent calculator and some 3D previews; people come to wowhead for 1 reason and that is the comment section. The user generated content.
If you keep scaring those users away with obnoxious and excessive monetizing schemes your user generated content will go away as well.
In a perfect world I wouldn't have to use an ad-blocker. For most sites I visit daily I've disabled it. wowhead.com is literally unusable without an ad-blocker. Look at reddit on how to do it. 1 or 2 simple and unobtrusive ads per page, if that. No auto-playing videos, no audio, no slowdowns, no crashes, no massive page-filling ads, no popups, etc.
Don't even get me started on the fact that one of your 'features', the 3D preview on every page, will crash Chrome. 100% reproducable. Yes you've added a button to disable that but if a feature literally crashes the biggest browser in the world maybe you should remove that pos altogether?
PS
And show some integrity and post this on the frontpage. Don't 'hide' it in some forum where the vast majority will never see it.
Post by
Interest
Nice to see this got addressed, though I can understand why some people are still rather upset by this. That isn't to say that there's some rather extreme opinions going around from ad hominem attacks caused overthinking-induced outrage or various rumors, but there are a few parts of the announcement itself that caught my eye.
At this point, we do need ads for the site to survive since we have a lot of unique and complicated features, like the flying tool and dressing room. We also try to design things with the users first in mind; for example, our localized databases aren't very profitable since they can't be monetized well with English ads, but they offer a huge service to a large part of our EU community and fansites, so we'll take the server costs and extra data processing time to keep that maintained.
I've already gone over this elsewhere, but if revenue is an issue, then surely there might be ways to improve it such as by trying to entice more people to use the forums and so on. Being user-friendly is great and ideally Wowhead won't consistently become a site people go out of their way to avoid, but maybe there's ways to go a step further without some sort of unfavorable compromise.
One thing we want to try to do is reduce the number of ads; we made a layout change to another ZAM site, Lolking, and the site now loads faster than Wowhead after being consistently slower for years. This layout change was scheduled to happen on Wowhead in a few months, after certain ad campaigns finished, but we've bumped up the timing on it. We think in addition to the bug we're trying to track down, there's too many ads on the current layout and it amplifies things. Another thing we want to look at is changing how ads are set up on pages people spend hours on, like the artifact guide - this can chew through hundreds of potential ads and eventually leave you with unsavory ones that make scary noises during a fight :(
Is it anything like how Lolking currently is? At the moment, both sites seem about the same to me in terms of the browser lag caused and the load speed (on Incognito). Maybe it's because I have a relatively decent computer, but I also have a theory: There are a lot of page elements (in addition to the ads) that contribute to performance issues especially on the front page and in guides for both sites. I can definitely see the strain even as an ad-less Patron, so I can't say I'm too optimistic about a layout change unless it's an attempt to dial back to something a little simpler in general (like how Wowhead was a few years ago). Addressing the ads is a start though, considering that apparently this site is infamously serving as an incentive for people to start running uBlock. I am concerned how much ads will get dialed back though considering Lolking is pretty ad-ridden in itself.
Finally, we've seen some people bring up the idea of a Wowhead-equivalent for Reddit gold for useful comments or guides; it's been cool to read about because part of our Premium revamp was rebuilding the system to be more modern, so there were fewer limitations and we could eventually do cool things like that. With the interest in that, it's something I'd want to prioritize creating.
Since Patron is also a rep reward, how would that work for people who already have Patron status (something I imagine a few guide-writers have just from submitting guides and other activity related to it)?
And show some integrity and post this on the frontpage. Don't 'hide' it in some forum where the vast majority will never see it.
Sadly the forums in general don't exactly have a lot of visibility, which is an "issue" I've been pointing out for a while. The most visible stuff will basically be news related to WoW and meta posts rarely end up there. Reddit to the rescue, I guess. Also, hi Reddit.
Post by
1727384
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Greywyr
Just leaving my opinion here, if it's worth for something.
I can understand the struggle to find a balance between keeping users happy and obtain revenue to sustain the site, but the truth is the balance is off. This is a cycle that most sites go through: people are annoyed by ads, they install some kind of blocker, ads become more aggressive and of more quantity. But is this the right solution? Because the main effect I see is users getting unsatisfied of how intrusive, malicious and out of control your ad policies became. Right now is impossible to disable any blocker to try to support you, the experience is really bad - and the cycle then resumes.
Without trying to sound condescending, please consider the reasons free users access this website. The website has grown over the years, with neat features, but occasional users gather here to obtain information provided by other users, namely the database you've built with comments and feedback. Guides are also a strength of this website, again submitted by users.
One thing I do not understand however, is why an occasional user should be pushed for a premium service to... just disable the ads? To solve the lack of security issue these ads may bring? As far I see, this lack of trust generated by this is something that pushes users far away from a premium service, even. And you can't just say "yeah, ads sucks :(". You have an obligation to guarantee safety when browsing, if wowhead wants to become trustworthy..
Why not instead, do a lite version for free users with the most basic features - your database complemented by all of us - and shift some of the website services to the premium version? Regardless of the modest price in place, you have to make people want to join premium and as of now, an occasional user does not have any.
It is really a shame, I've seen this website grow and how fundamental became to our gameplay. But situations like these, that happened before and keep happening, just puts people off.
Post by
Itanius
At this point, we do need ads for the site to survive since we have a lot of unique and complicated features, like the flying tool and dressing room.
I assume you have metrics in place and are spending resources on site features that are popular and useful to the majority of visitors?
I've been using this site since the beginning and I find a lot of "features" that have been added over the years "neat" but not very useful. Perhaps the site is trying too hard to become a "fan site for everything WoW" instead of the "Wowhead database" that your reputation is based off of (Database, comments, guides, talent calculator).
Finally, we've seen some people bring up the idea of a Wowhead-equivalent for Reddit gold for useful comments or guides...
This is a fantastic idea and would be very welcomed.
Post by
VraulJawrip
Much appreciated for the reply! Glad to see you folks at Wowhead are staying on top of things.
Post by
perculia
At this point, we do need ads for the site to survive since we have a lot of unique and complicated features, like the flying tool and dressing room.
I assume you have metrics in place and are spending resources on site features that are popular and useful to the majority of visitors?
I've been using this site since the beginning and I find a lot of "features" that have been added over the years "neat" but not very useful. Perhaps the site is trying too hard to become a "fan site for everything WoW" instead of the "Wowhead database" that your reputation is based off of (Database, comments, guides, talent calculator).
We all spend a lot of time on metrics - on the content end, it helps us see what topics people care about on the site, if features or guides we spent a lot of time on were worth the effort, if any layout changes or new types of promo increased traffic, and if we can predict trends to write timely guides. So this answer is kind of cool for me to write and probably longer than you expected :)
Looking at the traffic right now for top pages, it's a healthy mix of news articles, tools like the Dressing Room, guides written by staff (eg Mythic+), and user-submitted comments (eg Like the Wind, Good Suramaritan).
As WoW shifts from a game with a clear-cut path (eg raiding/group focused a few years back) to one with many niche things to do, we have had to adjust and make tools that target different audiences. We're generally pretty happy with them and the traffic they generate like the Flying Tool, Dressing Room, and Today in Broken Isles. If you're not really into transmog, the Dressing Room may feel kind of random, but it's really solid traffic for us.
The database is the most high-maintenance part of the site; Blizzard keeps incorporating basics parts of the database into the game (eg 7.1 added more options for sorting), which then decreases traffic for things like basic item lookups or filters. There are also a lot of hidden costs to maintain a database; eg when Blizzard changes file formats, it can unexpectedly break things on the site, or figuring out how to show Demon Hunter model details took a few weeks. As questing becomes easier and the leveling process faster, that also translates to fewer quests that have to be looked up. However for some users, the database is the core/main part of the site to them still - and when there's an annoying World Quest up, everyone goes to that page (hi, Like the Wind). Plus the database can power tools like Today in Broken Isles. The database isn't going anywhere, I just wanted to clarify that it's the most intensive part of the site <3
Since you brought up guides, I wanted to touch on some behind-the-scenes work that has been going on - it's not really noticeable but just gives the impression guides are thriving, which is working as intended. We periodically evaluate the database and see if there are certain sections which don't lend themselves well to comments, or if the comments come a bit late, and see if we can find awesome community members to write guides so the info is right there day of the patch. Eg: NPC boss pages weren't a great place for leaving timely and detailed boss strategies and we noticed declining traffic to that segment of the database, so in Warlords we started paying writers for raid and dungeon guides, and that part of the guide section has been successful. Another example is that people would prefer to read about class info in the format of a guide with some explanations, instead of hopping from spell page to page in the hopes of finding a comment, so we built up a network of players to write guides (while still keeping our spell database awesome since our PTR/beta notes have gotten increased traffic over time). These spec recommendations are then linked on the calculators which increase their usefulness and traffic as well. This is not to knock amazing user comments for things like quests or battle pets - different content just lends itself to different types of information presentation. (It's not always guides too as the solution - the Outfits database was made for people wanting to share custom transmog sets, and an Outfit is more visually effective than a comment.)
Why not instead, do a lite version for free users with the most basic features - your database complemented by all of us - and shift some of the website services to the premium version? Regardless of the modest price in place, you have to make people want to join premium and as of now, an occasional user does not have any.
Based on the internet behavior and murky rules surrounding authorship, what would likely happen is that similar-looking services would pop up elsewhere for free. Plus people would be outraged that features they enjoyed for free are now being taken away - it's a no-win situation for us.
And show some integrity and post this on the frontpage. Don't 'hide' it in some forum where the vast majority will never see it.
This post was originally made on the mega-Reddit thread, as a follow up to two other threads I posted there earlier yesterday.
Since Patron is also a rep reward, how would that work for people who already have Patron status (something I imagine a few guide-writers have just from submitting guides and other activity related to it)?
We don't really know all the details yet (maybe Battle.net balance gift cards if you're above a certain amount?) but we'll be reading the various suggestions to see how to handle the finer points of it. We just liked the idea of showing thanks for good comments.
This is a cycle that most sites go through: people are annoyed by ads, they install some kind of blocker, ads become more aggressive and of more quantity. But is this the right solution? Because the main effect I see is users getting unsatisfied of how intrusive, malicious and out of control your ad policies became. Right now is impossible to disable any blocker to try to support you, the experience is really bad - and the cycle then resumes.
Unfortunately the issue is tied to your first sentence - it's so common not because most sites think it's the best solution/business practice, but because this is a widespread issue across many sites reliant on ad-providers, who know they can push the envelope when it comes to serving ads because sites need them for money. People use Wowhead in a way that is different from some non-gaming sites (eg a newspaper may have bad ads, but you're not keeping an article open for 5 hours during an intense boss fight) so we're trying to look into some options I detailed in the post, like changing the layout to have less overall ads or ones that refresh less on the pages people are likely to keep open for hours (eg raid guides).(##RESPBREAK##)2##DELIM##perculia##DELIM##
Post by
Peroxide
Because those uploading ads only started in the last few days. And in general, ads shown vary over time.
This has been ongoing for more than the last few days. Looking at my custom filters, we're going back to at least 11/19/2016 which is over a week. I guess you can always fall back on the "we can't control the ad network, so don't blame us, blame them!". Most children are taught to take responsibility for their actions, but unfortunately that rarely extends into adulthood.
I guess we go back to my original question of, how was this missed if you truly care about the quality and content of the site?
Not to obfuscate, but to lessen the effect it has on users. And yes, this was addressed above.
Lessen the effect, but only once the dev console was opened in a browser? Where was this addressed? I don't think you understood quite what I was referring to.
If you open the dev console, this will cause a page reload and it will starts to play "nicer" -- apparently in an attempt to hide what it is really doing from those who are more investigative.
However closes the dev console, and open uBO's logger, reload the front page and see that thousands upon thousands of ...g00.wowhead.com/g00/...$/$-like network requests are fired non-stop.
It's like the site is designed to fire a lot of obfuscated garbage network requests along with a few legitimate ones, as a punishment for using a blocker. Will see what I can do, but ultimately not visiting such sites is probably what work best given the behavior.
This was created by Instart Logic and implemented on WoWHead.
Post by
cinderstorm
Thanks Perc. Hope you're getting a chance to enjoy your break a bit.
Just in terms of improvements to premium content - I would really love to be able to give someone an annual subscription to WoWhead. I love the site and how much it helps us, and think and annual pass would be a really great gift for people.
Thanks again for keeping us in the loop :)
Post by
jasminium
Hi perculia,
Have you considered moving on from display ads? There are more native methods used nowadays - have used some of them myself at work (marketer). More sponsored posts and videos for example with full disclosure? You've certainly done this before it seems but this should become a more frequent occurrence in your revenue generating strategy. Affiliate marketing can also be a good solution (either CPA or CPL). Does the Blizzard Gear Store have an affiliate program you can leverage?
Post Reply
This topic is locked. You cannot post a reply.