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A Taxed, Fixed-Price/Highest-DKP-Wins System?

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Post by Madinauzi

I'm trying to work out a fair dkp system as a suggestion for my guild's officers and this is what i came up with.

I would like some comments/criticism/suggestions/etc for it.

The Taxed/Fixed-Price/Highest DKP Wins

- In this system every item is worth a set amount of DKP.
- The winner of "loot" is the person with the highest DKP.

In this system, it is very "vulnerable" to inflation and can be fixed by adding a taxation system into it.
- At the end of each raiding week (maintnance night) you will lose 10% of your total dkp. This will reduce the "hording" of points and will encourage you to spend your points.

Also, to be fair to people who attend and those who do not attend.
- For each WHOLE raid attended that week, the tax for that player is reduced by 5%.
- For each WHOLE raid missed that week, the tax for that player is increased by 5%

Example:
Player A has 35 points and then raids SSC (5 points) TK (10 points) and Magtheridon (5 points) and then has a total of 55 points.
Player B has 70 points and then raids only TK (10 point) and then has 80 points.

This part of the system would be done using a system and these values are just "placeholders" at the moment.

Player A has gets taxed on 55 points, since he raided 3 whole raids, his tax is -5%, he then ends up with 57.75 points.
Player B gets taxed on 80 points, since he fully attended 1 raid and completely missed 2, his tax is equal to 15%, he then ends up with 68 points.

Viola,
- People who attend whole raids are benefited by the tax system.
- People leaving midway of raids arent affected.
- People who fail to attend raids at all lose out on their dkp.

Sure, it would take a buttload of work at the end of the week to work out the end value of their dkp.

But would this be a good system? I'm just running it by here before i post it in guild forums.

Thanks in advance!

Post by wingman

Different systems work for different guilds. The #1 rule is KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid)

From the tone of your post, it sounds like your guild has an attendance problem. Perhaps that should be addressed first?

Post by 106896

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Post by Madinauzi

Alright cheers, i'll have a look at that EPGP system.
Edit: ok, everything in that EPGP system just flew over my head lol. Can i get an explanation for idiots? :P

Post by dtothen

You get EP (effort points) for attending raids, killing bosses, having food buffs and so on.
You get GP (gear points) for recieving loots (the EPGP addon will add how much GP an item is worth on the ingame tooltip).

Then the raid is ordered by the ratio of EP to GP and people whisper the raid leader. The member with the highest ratio is awarded the loot and their ratio is recalculated with added GP.

You can choose to decay both EP and GP by a certain % every week/month/whatever.

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Post by 84594

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Post by Madinauzi

Yeah...your DKP system, in theory, would work, but not really so in-game.

For example: What if someone has to sit out for a specific fight, either because someone needs something from a particular boss? Does that person still get DKP for the entire run?

Or - you have players sitting out. Do they count as "attended the entire run", or "missed the entire run"?

They would still be counted as attending, aslong as they can be contacted (via whisper to an alt or ventrillo etc) to come back in if need be.

The only real problem i can see in this system is that its kinda complicated and would be time consuming to maintain.

Unless of course i found a code monkey who was able to figure out an eqation and addon etc.... lol.

Set a cap. Say enough for someone to buy 1.5 items (based off the average cost of each item.) Then no matter what there is no inflation.

Yeah i like the sound of there being a cap, but setting it at 1.5 may be a bit low, as we're setting out items at i think it was 20dkp, and tier items being 30.

It would be relatively easy to hti the cap of 37.5 dkp, and if people are "unable" to spend their dkp by being well geared enough to not need upgrades at the current progression, then they arent being rewarded.

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Post by Madinauzi

I'm 100% sure that was the best explanation of zero-sum ever.

I'm going to suggest zero-sum to my raid leader (RL firend ftw), it has always been my favorite system.

Thanks all for the feedback and advice. It is very much appreciated!

Post by 105861

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Post by MrFredII

Taxes generally cause the most heartache

Having lived with DKP systems, DKP inflation, the use of DKP to punish or incentivize various player behaviors, and the underground manipulation of DKP by cooperating groups to defeat the systems original intent, I'll offer yo some observations. I have also loyally raided for many weeks waiting to get a single item, paying my repair bills, and getting no gear because I already had the items that could drop for me or better. I was more interested in building the guild than garnering gear that would allow me to move on, but I realize that many people raid only to see end game and get better gear.

Realize that if they are to work your DKP system must be planned to last a long time.

1: If you tax DKP and do not have enough players so that you won't need people to attend raids that they no longer need gear from, be prepared for a backlash, especially if you use separate pools. Your committed raiders will rapidly exhaust the value and suddenly be unavailable for that raid. You will probably find that you need their expertise.

2: Rather than using separate pools, you will likely be better served by making items from higher level raids more expensive with a comparably higher award for attending.

3: DO NOT ATTEMPT TO USE THE DKP SYSTEM TO DISCIPLINE PROBLEMS! DKP is a system to allow rewards to be distributed among a group of competing interests. If you have discipline issues they should be handled by your officers through a different mechanism. I can assure you from personal experience that it is close to impossible to use DKP deduction as a punishment without causing a great deal of strife.

4: Similarly you should not use DKP to recognize play quality. It is too subjective and I assure you, no matter how transparent and reasonable merit awards may appear to be to the person making that decision, large numbers of your players will resent it, some deeply. Oh and they will remember it a very long time.

5: Require that the award be an upgrade.

6: Not mentioned but something that you need to decide is the alt question. Does DKP belong to the toon or the player. This also raises the question of alts getting something on an equal basis with a main. Personally I believe that DKP should belong to the player but an alt gets something only if a main doesn't qualify.

7: No system is perfect and the long term need of the raid may require that on occasion (preferably very rarely) the rules must be set aside to award a piece of gear to a specific player. These cases should be made public early and the information widely circulated and possibly mentioned at the start of the raid.

As an aside - in every case that I have seen where a guild fractures and members leave to form new guilds the second thing they do after signing the charter is to fight over/ discuss how to create a fairer DKP system.

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Post by cms2k

The best system is still /roll. It is just hard to argue with a random roll. Our raiding team members have enough self-control not to roll on items that are not an upgrade and a "significant" one at that.

The only logical conclusion to the OP is a disbanding of the guild or a mass exodus. It is a common economic rule that you Tax what you want less of and Subsidize what you want more of. The taxing of someones legitimately earned points is brainless on its very face. This has probably been addressed. SO WHAT if someone hoards their points? IT IS THEIR POINTS! They earned it. Not with that said, I certainly agree that people should be penalized for not attending raids (when they sign up) or being late to raids. LIFE HAPPENS SOMETIMES! We realize that and I'm sure you do as well. Impromptu AFK's should also be addressed. Gears sometimes falls asleep at the keyboard which admittedly was funny once but holds the 10-man or 25-man up. We usually handle this by letting them know the next drop they could roll on as an upgrade for this particular raid won't count. We have never had anyone get mad at that including Gears.

The OP's system certainly seems conceived by a ego-maniacal bent on controlling and micro-managing everyone else's hard work. Perhaps it was not mean that way so please take this criticism with a grain or two of salt.

MrFred has some good points as well however we abandoned our DKP system long ago.

Post by Howlle

we currently have set rates for items trash/boss.
so a trash in MHJ is cheaper than a Boss and so on.
everyone who signed for the raid gets priority over those who didn't. everyone who is in the raid group before raid start get a bonus DKP. then if you are rolled out, you get a 'Joker' giving 100% spot the next night, if you don't come the next night it's lost (to stop ppl saving saving jokers). exceptions are made if someone can't attend the following night.
we have hourly rates of DKP.
and all our players are in ranks (according to gear and how well they perform). Rank 1 & 2 (we used to have rank 3, all are now rank 2 and above).
Rank 1 get priority on progression raids. and rank 2 get priority on Farm raids.
this way, everyone who regularly performs and raids gets a chance at the new loot, rank 2's get to show their worth in Farm runs and if you don't actually get to raid one night, you have a spot the next.

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