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Why heirlooms need to be removed!
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Post by
Interest
you don't even need the 1-100 heirlooms. 1-90 is plenty to last you. Draenor Leveling is fast enough without them, and Draenor Questing Gear is generally better. 1-90 will last you all the way through Pandaria, though leveling 58-80 is just a dungeon finder grind anyway,
My point was that most heirlooms need at least one upgrade to be relevant. Pretty big thing to consider since all the upgrade tokens are typically more expensive than the heirlooms themselves (and a time sink at the bare minimum).
Post by
Umbriere
you don't even need the 1-100 heirlooms. 1-90 is plenty to last you. Draenor Leveling is fast enough without them, and Draenor Questing Gear is generally better. 1-90 will last you all the way through Pandaria, though leveling 58-80 is just a dungeon finder grind anyway,
My point was that most heirlooms need at least one upgrade to be relevant. Pretty big thing to consider since all the upgrade tokens are typically more expensive than the heirlooms themselves (and a time sink at the bare minimum).
truesies. you just need one upgrade. you don't need more than one per loom. but you do need one per loom you intend to use. plus you can use armor types 1 step weaker if needed.
Post by
Jkpman
I think the problem really lies with the fact people are weak.
When given something to help level, it's seen more as a necessity rather than a choice.
How is that weakness? To me that's a strength, to only look at the best/most efficient means to level. If you look at that way it's definitely a necessity.
You can't control other people using heirlooms but you can control your own toons.
Why would you though? You're telling me you would purposefully deny yourself efficiency?
No that's not what I mean.
Personally I don't give a toss, I'd happily use an heirloom in every slot if they were available.
By weakness I mean the people whining about heirlooms ruining the game still use them.
Post by
Umbriere
the problem isn't with Heirlooms, with the Difficulty of leveling content, or with Group Finder.
the problem is with the instant Gratification Mentality and the fact nobody has patience for new and inexperienced players or players playing a role or specialization for the first time. because players are "GoGoGo". kicks are quite frequent. and everybody refuses to talk or coordinate, because they have this default assumption that you automatically know the fight. even when you truly don't or truly forgot. because most low level content isn't memorable.
Post by
Interest
the problem isn't with Heirlooms, with the Difficulty of leveling content, or with Group Finder.
the problem is with the instant Gratification Mentality and the fact nobody has patience for new and inexperienced players or players playing a role or specialization for the first time. because players are "GoGoGo". kicks are quite frequent. and everybody refuses to talk or coordinate, because they have this default assumption that you automatically know the fight. even when you truly don't or truly forgot. because most low level content isn't memorable.
That's definitely an issue but that's largely confined to group content (yes I know OP was referring to this, but...). However, heirlooms can also be perceived as "ruining" solo-oriented leveling content in addition to group, which is where the discussion seems to move towards. Also,
leveling content difficulty is an issue
, if perhaps in a more mechanical sense.
Post by
Jkpman
because most low level content isn't memorable.
It's a catch 22 situation, it's not memorable because it's trivial, because most groups wear heirlooms and outgear the instances. Up until current end game content, dungeons are simply an efficient way to gain XP. I personally can't remember the last time I rolled need on an item from a dungeon because I actually needed it.
However, heirlooms can also be perceived as "ruining" solo-oriented leveling content in addition to group.
Which is a silly argument in my opinion. You cannot control a random groups wearing heirlooms and zooming through a dungeon. You have full control over your solo leveling experience.
Post by
Interest
Well I did provide something of a reason why that perception might be the case. It's interesting you bring this up since you're sort of contradicting yourself:
Which is a silly argument in my opinion. You cannot control a random groups wearing heirlooms and zooming through a dungeon.
You have full control over your solo leveling experience.
Really make me wonder, Do heirlooms really hinder you learning your spec? I'd like to know how?
Unless I'm unusually gifted, by the time I learn a new spell, slotted it into my priority (maybe added a macro) then It's done. If there is any learning to be done, killing another 200 easy mobs in a zone isn't going to teach you anything.
Each to their own,
but I just don't get what you are saying, how many times do you need to use Revealing Strike before you understand what it does?
But it's not like there's no consistency between your points (In truth I'm not being entirely serious anyways). In this we're in agreement that a solo experience can be however the player wants it to be, even if it's due to the aforementioned, probably faulty perception.
Post by
NeoBlackheart
I personally believe the xp gain from them should increase with the number of characters you have that is over your current character.
You level 1 character 1-100 the old fasion way and then buy some heirlooms.
Second character gets what it sits at now in leveling xp you hit 100
Heirlooms on Third character now gives 5% more per item. YOu hit 100
Heirlooms on Fourth character gives 10% more per item you don't like this character you hit 80
Herilooms on Fifth character gives you 15% more per item you hit 80. Xp Gains drop back to 10% because you only have 3 chracters above your level
Heck i wouldn't mind if it was even more than this. I have like 5 85+characters and I despise leveling. I was looking into just buying a second account with real money JUST for the RAF bonus. Then going to buy the 300% XP potions and farming the other 300% xp potion and then heirlooming it up JUST so I can get past the 1-85 Areas quick.
Post by
Interest
IDK. At this point I think Blizzard should explore other ways to provide new character leveling with prestige. They could do what you're proposing with achievements or something, but exp gain and rare items stats aren't the only metrics that could be used to make replayability more enjoyable (aside from the obligatory "fix leveling difficulty curve"). Diablo's Paragon is a good place to start looking.
Post by
NeoBlackheart
IDK. At this point I think Blizzard should explore other ways to provide new character leveling with prestige. They could do what you're proposing with achievements or something, but exp gain and rare items stats aren't the only metrics that could be used to make replayability more enjoyable (aside from the obligatory "fix leveling difficulty curve). Diablo's Paragon is a good place to start looking.
If they could do anything to make leveling new characters easier I would have a field day. Heck what if Instead of Making stronger heirlooms or More items that increase XP gain you get 1 BOA item that when used teleports you at level 1 or whatever level to a island/area. This area has quests that you have to complete that give huge chunks of xp. This xp is not modified by BOAs but it only takes like 1 hour to hit 60 then 1 to 70 1 to 80 and 1 to 90.The quest can be some Epic Adventure.
Better yet what if Its a Timewalker type deal. You go into the area and start moving It starts off showing what happened with the lore in Vanilla then moves on to show what happened in BC then WotLK and so forth. with maybe you fighting either depowered final bosses of those x-packs. Such as you go through vanilla learning about the battle between the horde and the alliance then have to end up fighting Naxx then from there you head out into Outland where you go and fight Illidan then to Northrend to fight The Lich King and then to Dragon soul and so forth.
Post by
jarycu
If they could do anything to make leveling new characters easier I would have a field day.
<snipped the rest>
I'm fairly satisfied with things the way they are, but your idea is interesting. I'm with Interest in that something needs to be revamped. I love to level new toons, but I get burned out between levels 30-60 or so and end up leaving them stranded, often never returning to them. I even hit the "alt cap" a few weeks ago of 50 toons total, but only 11 of them are max (or even past level 60 for that matter), so I had to start deleting them.
I think we all know that Blizzard won't create new "old school" content, so they're never going to go back and add in your "BoA port" idea (even though I kinda like it). They won't even add new content for current xpacs
Post by
Interest
Better yet what if Its a Timewalker type deal. You go into the area and start moving It starts off showing what happened with the lore in Vanilla then moves on to show what happened in BC then WotLK and so forth. with maybe you fighting either depowered final bosses of those x-packs. Such as you go through vanilla learning about the battle between the horde and the alliance then have to end up fighting Naxx then from there you head out into Outland where you go and fight Illidan then to Northrend to fight The Lich King and then to Dragon soul and so forth.
It may also be a little too time-consuming and data intensive to do so. Worth noting Blizzard does already sort of do that as well, though the coherence of storytelling from a timeline perspective is still confusing.
I think we all know that Blizzard won't create new "old school" content, so they're never going to go back and add in your "BoA port" idea (even though I kinda like it). They won't even add new content for current xpacs
IDK. It's possible. They did happen to announce in the recent leveling fixes that it's only the beginning of something much bigger. Maybe they saw my blog post and noted that I was specifically asking for some new old school-styled content (subzones full of elites, more
optional
group questing arcs, etc) with 2016+ game design (so they're mechanically challenging instead of being a ball of health and autoattack damage).
Maybe that's not quite what you had in mind when it comes to old school content, but it's a start. As much as I may dump on older iterations of the game, it's not like they had zero substance in terms of game design.
Post by
jarycu
I think we all know that Blizzard won't create new "old school" content, so they're never going to go back and add in your "BoA port" idea (even though I kinda like it). They won't even add new content for current xpacs
IDK. It's possible. They did happen to announce in the recent leveling fixes that it's only the beginning of something much bigger. Maybe they saw my blog post and noted that I was specifically asking for some new old school-styled content (subzones full of elites, more
optional
group questing arcs, etc) with 2016+ game design (so they're mechanically challenging instead of being a ball of health and autoattack damage).
Maybe that's not quite what you had in mind when it comes to old school content, but it's a start. As much as I may dump on older iterations of the game, it's not like they had zero substance in terms of game design.
I remember reading that too, but then I also think about how badly Cataclysm was received overall. I didn't play before Cata (I tried the base game and each xpac and never made it more than a week), but Cata is the xpac that got me playing WoW so I never understood the bad reception. I thoroughly enjoyed it even though my main never hit a Cata raid until well into MoP.
Doing a major change the likes of which was suggested above would require a content revamp of that magnitude.
Post by
Interest
I remember reading that too, but then I also think about how badly Cataclysm was received overall. I didn't play before Cata (I tried the base game and each xpac and never made it more than a week), but Cata is the xpac that got me playing WoW so I never understood the bad reception. I thoroughly enjoyed it even though my main never hit a Cata raid until well into MoP.
Doing a major change the likes of which was suggested above would require a content revamp of that magnitude.
Understandable, but at the same time a lot of Cata's negative reception seemed to be related to endgame issues that Blizzard, despite having to spend dev time revamping older zones (which could take away from something like level design in the endgame, etc), had done ample work on the endgame. I recall Abyssal Maw's cancellation, which was one facet of frustration, was due to Z-axis combat being very awkward on WoW (Vashj'ir showed why in spades).
Other issues related to Cataclysm were largely about design decisions, such as the decision to create a repetitive Madness of Deathwing fight or overtune then nerf content to appease various types of players, alienating them all in the process.
I recall the leveling content was praised and at the time, it was fairly good. Not perfect since some depth was taken away in terms of leveling options within zones (such as in the way of group quests, elite subzones, etc), but it was a lot better than the cryptic, mechanically lacking mess that Vanilla's leveling zones embodied. It definitely seemed to be worth the dev time overall.
Also, what I have in mind is more between what Cata did and what WoD did (since they had to do a squish on all the content). It would involve some numerical balancing and mechanical additions along with some relatively minor content additions that serve as an extension to existing leveling zones as opposed to an overhaul.
TL;DR: Cata's failures stem more from poor design decisions than poor management of development time. The development time needed to revamp leveling content like I envision it (and how I imagine somewhere within the realm of what Blizzard wants) would only require a partial revamp similar to the squish, albeit more substantial.
Post by
CarnageHouse
The way I see it is because now the level cap is so high compared to the humble beginnings of the 60 cap. It's almost a necessity for veteran players. One can only experience the same leveling content at a slower pace for so long. Just my opinion.
Post by
Interest
The way I see it is because now the level cap is so high compared to the humble beginnings of the 60 cap. It's almost a necessity for veteran players. One can only experience the same leveling content at a slower pace for so long. Just my opinion.
To be fair, the exp needed to level up gets reduced after a few patches into an expansion, usually. Between that and some other factors that don't involve exp boosts, the pace isn't that much slower as a result, thankfully.
Post by
jarycu
The way I see it is because now the level cap is so high compared to the humble beginnings of the 60 cap. It's almost a necessity for veteran players. One can only experience the same leveling content at a slower pace for so long. Just my opinion.
To be fair, the exp needed to level up gets reduced after a few patches into an expansion, usually. Between that and some other factors that don't involve exp boosts, the pace isn't that much slower as a result, thankfully.
The pace isn't that much slower, but once you've quested through Westfall 20-30x (at least!), or you've dungeon-spammed your 23rd alt through Outland because you hate most of the zones...heirlooms are a huge help.
I gave up on leveling this year and boosted the classes I didn't have just to avoid the grind. With some help from Icy Veins, it wasn't that difficult to learn to play the specs I'd chosen, and now I'm very versatile in my guild as I have all the classes at max level. That'll come in handy in September when we're trying to form a raid team and I can just plug any need we have with an alt.
Post by
Interest
The way I see it is because now the level cap is so high compared to the humble beginnings of the 60 cap. It's almost a necessity for veteran players. One can only experience the same leveling content at a slower pace for so long. Just my opinion.
To be fair, the exp needed to level up gets reduced after a few patches into an expansion, usually. Between that and some other factors that don't involve exp boosts, the pace isn't that much slower as a result, thankfully.
The pace isn't that much slower, but once you've quested through Westfall 20-30x (at least!), or you've dungeon-spammed your 23rd alt through Outland because you hate most of the zones...heirlooms are a huge help.
That's a different story though. My interpretations of the post I was replying to were that having to level an alt to 60 isn't quite as boring as leveling one to 100 because of the 40 level difference and hence slower pacing. Repetition, on the other hand, is definitely a big issue to consider either way.
Post by
Umbriere
they need to Revamp Outland and Northrend. as to make the zones interesting again. because those are the 2 most boring continents. add some Cata Style Mechanics. maybe revamp the blood elf and draenei starting zones.
Post by
Interest
they need to Revamp Outland and Northrend. as to make the zones interesting again. because those are the 2 most boring continents. add some Cata Style Mechanics. maybe revamp the blood elf and draenei starting zones.
I more or less agree, but I wouldn't just settle for Cata considering even Cata content is starting to look dated and there is a problem of lacking depth further emphasized by Cata-style leveling, such as a divergence of solo leveling choice (because it's mostly just "quest a lot"). Mists leveling appears to be the best fit in recent memory that would fit this requirement of diverse solo leveling choices.
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