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The Carrot Has Been Removed, Thoughts On Flying. + Second Quarter Predictions?
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Post by
335450
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
I'd like to encourage moving away from words like "rights". This isn't that emotive, it's a game mechanic that is subject to the designer's decision over what best helps the game be experienced and flourish as it is intended to be. With this in mind a compromise is not a good idea as it still causes a ruckus without actually achieving the intended goal.
But why? Again, they want us to play the game the way they intended us to play it. And we did. Now that we did, what harm could there be to let us play it the way we
want
to play it? That's what I meant by compromise. We play it their way for 8 months, then we play it our way the next 8 months. I just can't imagine how that would hurt their artistic vision for the game in any way. We did the content the way they intended to. We played the game the way it was meant to be played.
Now let us play it the way we WANT to play it.
Let me put this another way:
Raids are not meant to be soloed. You are supposed to get a group together, and suffer through the mechanics, learning the boss skills, getting used to the rotations, and work together to tackle them down. Higher modes reward the perseverance with gorgeous mounts, and unique transmog items, and the like.
We play them the way they're meant to be played first (By suffering through the mechanics, and learning, and improving, and overcoming) but when they're OLD and obsolete, we can totally solo them. They weren't intended to be soloed, but we can, because they're just not a challenge anymore, they're not hard, they're laughably easy.
Algalon, the raid-breaker who feeds on our tears, I can kill that sucker in 1 rotation and a half in 10man normal. And that was most certainly not the way he was intended to be experienced, but I am playing it that way because he's no longer relevant. If the devs were so hardcore and gunho about us playing the game the way it was meant to be played, they'd keep buffing all the old bosses so that they're always at current level and none are unsoloable.
They can buckle for that, but they can't buckle for flying? WHY NOT?
Post by
asakawa
Once they release the finished product to the public, it is
no longer up to them
to decide how we, the paying customers, consume it.
But they released the finished product in 2004 without flying... and yet, I just downloaded an update a few days ago :P
I agree that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The film critic Mark Kermode said to the actor Willem Dafoe about the film Antichrist that he was wrong about what the film meant because he was just in it while Kermode
watched
it - the implication being that consumers of art create the meaning when they experience it and artists can only hope to direct the flow of that process at best.
All of that (in which I have a great interest!) however bears no relation whatsoever to this discussion. Firstly because this isn't a game with a final product, it's a changing and evolving piece of media. And secondly because games are a different media entirely, multiplayer games even more so. If people find a way to cheat in the single player campaign of CoD then it'll probably get patched. If people find a way to cheat in the multiplayer version then that patch is vitally important and urgent. In beta phases game developers watch to see how players experience the art they created and look to see what behaviour is problematic or running counter to their intention. In an MMO like WoW that must evolve so much, even outside of beta phases data is collected and the direction of player behaviours and interactions are scrutinised.
This is all well and good, but you didn't addressed my main point
Actually I did:
To engage your point Rank, I wouldn't personally mind if flight was off for levelling and on for other stuff but I can totally understand why Blizz haven't seen this solution (as used in previous expansions) as an effective one. As such I'm generally supportive of their decision to make the hard choice and do what they feel needs to be done for the game, even in light of the predictable backlash.
Raids are not meant to be soloed.
Sure, and if Blizz felt that doing so at later levels presented a serious deviation from their vision for the game I'm sure they'd change it.
So, look, Blizz clearly aren't doing a good job of getting people on board with why they think this change is important enough to be worth suffering the backlash. I can understand it as I can see the effect it has on the whole game and since I don't feel like I get anything from flying other than occasionally getting to places a bit quicker I support Blizz making the change, trusting that it makes things better for them, either technically on their end or allowing for further development of game mechanics for the players. Still though, I have gained no understanding from all the pages of discussion here, on the official forum and on Reddit, for why it's so important to people or why some people see it as such an emotive subject, using words like "rights" and "freedom". I simply don't see this as a subject that warrants that kind of engagement.
Also worth mentioning that my understanding is that locations that currently allow flying will continue to do so, so very old content will all still allow for flying around, just not Draenor once 7.0 releases etc.(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##
Post by
crsh1976
As one poster aptly put it, putting flying in the game doesn't hurt the people who don't want to fly. All they have to do is not hit the spacebar and fly.
It's not as simple as that. If I'm say levelling an alt through a zone and people are flying through it, I'm not going to see or interact with them. Part of the MMO experience is interacting with others and flying is detrimental to that.
I'd wager that garrisons have been far more detrimental to the social aspect of the game than flying has ever been.
Post by
Rankkor
Sure, and if Blizz felt that doing so at later levels presented a serious deviation from their vision for the game I'm sure they'd change it.
But don't you think that's a little bit hypocritical from their end? "We wont let you fly because the game wasn't intended to be played that way, this content was designed to be played on the ground", but then they let us solo raids even though those too weren't meant to be soloed, and were meant to be the ultimate end-game content? if they don't mind us soloing those when they're already obsolete and irrelevant, then why-o-why can't that same principle apply to the outside world? its obsolete, what harm could it do to let us fly over it?
Post by
asakawa
As one poster aptly put it, putting flying in the game doesn't hurt the people who don't want to fly. All they have to do is not hit the spacebar and fly.
It's not as simple as that. If I'm say levelling an alt through a zone and people are flying through it, I'm not going to see or interact with them. Part of the MMO experience is interacting with others and flying is detrimental to that.
I'd wager that garrisons have been far more detrimental to the social aspect of the game than flying has ever been.
I'd probably agree but A isn't wrong because B is worse. And A shouldn't be ignored simply because B also needs solving.
Post by
crsh1976
As one poster aptly put it, putting flying in the game doesn't hurt the people who don't want to fly. All they have to do is not hit the spacebar and fly.
It's not as simple as that. If I'm say levelling an alt through a zone and people are flying through it, I'm not going to see or interact with them. Part of the MMO experience is interacting with others and flying is detrimental to that.
I'd wager that garrisons have been far more detrimental to the social aspect of the game than flying has ever been.
I'd probably agree but A isn't wrong because B is worse. And A shouldn't be ignored simply because B also needs solving.
You're right, however with all the examples we have where solo play is encouraged (casual content or whatever you want to call it, anything that doesn't require a group), and even enforced (garrisons being the worst offender), I gotta wonder why flying is getting accused of breaking immersion and making the world safer than it should be.
Post by
zjones666
I'm just going to run nothing but old fly-through-able content in protest. No Garrison, no Draenor at all actually. That and with the WoW Token being fairly inexpensive (right around 20k-ish gold on NA realms), I won't have to give my hard earned money to Blizzard to keep playing. I'll essentially rage play their game, for free mind you, and whenever the next expansion comes out, I'll decide if they can have my money again. But we'll just have to wait and see I suppose.
Those Arakkoa Outcasts make a damn good point though, "
What are we without the sky?
"
Post by
jarycu
I'd probably agree but A isn't wrong because B is worse. And A shouldn't be ignored simply because B also needs solving.
You're right, however with all the examples we have where solo play is encouraged (casual content or whatever you want to call it, anything that doesn't require a group), and even enforced (garrisons being the worst offender), I gotta wonder why flying is getting accused of breaking immersion and making the world safer than it should be.
Don't forget also how, a few months ago, people were doing a very MMO-like thing and getting in big groups to do the Apexis dailies, and Blizz said "NO YOU HEATHENS! You can't group in big groups of people and do things that we designed to be done in big groups of people! WTF are you people thinking? We're going to change it so that, on Tuesday and ever after, if you do what we wanted you to do, you'll no longer get credit for it."
I doubt the discussion was worded like that, but....
Post by
darkelemental1
So then at what point should I still continue to care about the content, the difficulty of the terrain, and the encounters along the way? 1 patch? 2 patches? 1 whole expansion? 2 expansions? At what point am I allowed to explore the world in the method of my choosing without blizzard deciding for me how I can do it? All I see is something they no longer wanted to be bothered with so they took it away and rather than return it later when the content is considered by both parties to be "old" they limit the usefulness of the now old content by not making it easily accessible to people coming back to it, the incentive or casual use of it is diminished.
Post by
asakawa
Blizzard ultimately decides everything in the game. I'm not sure why that is a surprise to so many people. They decided that botters should be banned. They decided that the level cap should be 100. They decided that Druids can't use Soothe in Bear Form. Some people like some of these decisions, some people dislike some of the decisions. Even sandbox MMOs are quite strictly controlled and monitored, and WoW is no sandbox MMO.
Just think that the path of least resistance is by far the most boring path to take. If Frodo really had flown from his door to Mount Doom on an eagle (damn, I started this metaphor without thinking that it's actually pretty apt! ^_^) the book(s) would have been 10 pages long (and made only two films). I think that this is basically what Blizzard is thinking here. Yes flying is easier, more efficient and more streamlined but it leaves no room for you characters to have their adventure.
Post by
jarycu
If Frodo really had flown from his door to Mount Doom on an eagle (damn, I started this metaphor without thinking that it's actually pretty apt! ^_^) the book(s) would have been 10 pages long (and made only two films). I think that this is basically what Blizzard is thinking here. Yes flying is easier, more efficient and more streamlined but it leaves no room for you characters to have their adventure.
A day in the life of Trixabell the Warlock:
*thinks to herself* "What do I feel like doing today? Yesterday I set 27
Direfang Alpha
on fire so that I could put caged pieces of them into my barn and extract their blood and fur, so I don't need to do that today. I've already beaten down that damned little battle pet in front of my garrison as well. Maybe I should travel back to Pandaria and visit my friends the Pandarens."
*hearths to Pandaria*
/mount
Cenarion War Hippogryph
"Man I love the views from riding my
Cenarion War Hippogryph
over Pandaria. Oh wait, is that the Sha down below? I'm on my flying mount, however shall I fly down to it and have an adventure to see what I can do with it? Oh wait, I can aim my mount towards the ground, hop off, and then have an adventure of my choosing! What fun this shall be! Oh my! Once I'm done, I can then get back onto my
Cenarion War Hippogryph
and fly to another site where I shall have another adventure.
"Thank the heavens and gods of old that our creators have given me such a wondrous beast that will allow me to fly everywhere. I am so thankful that, in this land of many mountains, rivers, lakes, forests, swamps, and enemies, that I can choose my own adventures to be had without wasting the time that the evil devils of days gone by laid out in front of me.
"I love being able to have an adventure in such a beautiful land without wasting time in places I don't wish to tarry any longer. Being a nearly-omnipotent warlock of destruction has it's perks, but it is draining on my soul and mana to have to set fire to every single critter and insect between the eastern and western coasts just to do what I'd like to do.
"I shall always be thankful for my
Cenarion War Hippogryph
and the grand aerial views that it provides."
See Asakawa, that's how my adventures happened, complete with the inner monologue. (Sometimes an inner dialogue as well, but that's another story.) Warlocks, unlike hunters, can't move and fire any longer, so if I want to go somewhere, I have to stop, cast a spell, wait 1-2 seconds for it to build up and discharge, then maybe do it again if I'm in a high enough zone. On a flying mount, notsomuch. I drop down, have the adventure that I choose to have, and go on about my merry way.
edited for typos
Post by
darkelemental1
But flying, in most expansions, happens after the adventure anyway. These are mostly leveling zones that I have leveled through, their mobs are grey to green level at worst and the low end of yellow at best. Yes there are still areas within the zone that are built around level cap but rather than make them dismount areas (such as goren area pelts you with boulders) they negate the entire experience. What adventure am I meant to somehow enjoy now as flying is taken away? This was why I was ok with even waiting for once the next expansion came out, let the entire expected experience be done and over with before letting us fly makes total sense because you didnt design the world around open flying. But now I dont even have that sliver of hope, what adventure am I meant to have there then once its officially old content? Why is allowing flying then still so abhorrent?
On a side note it is better explained in the books why the Eagles didnt take them the whole way. One, they were openly afraid of the humans who used bows against them, orcs with bows would only be a compounded issue. Secondly they were only returning a favor to Gandalf and were unwilling to put themselves in any real danger for the convenience of some people on a quest they didnt really care about. But I do see the analogy you were going for none the less.
Post by
asakawa
@Jarcyu *applause* Very good ^_^
I still disagree though. You're still essentially saying that you can see something while flying and go and engage it, which is fine and I agree, but it's the things you wouldn't see or even the things you would see but would ignore, that you would miss out on. Maybe Blizz would need to design with this in mind too, putting less "trash" and more interesting things in the world between hubs but it's still a principle I can get behind.
Post by
elrinde
You're still essentially saying that you can see something while flying and go and engage it, which is fine and I agree, but it's the things you wouldn't see or even the things you would see but would ignore, that you would miss out on.
But at the same time there are so many things I would have never seen or noticed if it weren't for flying. I'm the kind of crazy person that ran/swam/ghost-walked/mountain-climbed all around Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms to find hidden places, but there was so much stuff I had never even noticed before flying over it without tree branches blocking my sight in every direction. Even small things like mountain ranges shaped like a squirrel or a lost sheep on a tree top.
If you see a thing and ignore it, it's probably because you've seen it before and want to avoid it, that is not missing out. Much like skipping cut-scenes after you've watched them 20 times is not missing out on them.
Flying is not just about getting from point A to B quickly, it can be so nice after a hard day to just fly around aimlessly looking at stuff. Not quite as nice to run around aimlessly getting stuck in tree roots and mobbed by low level minions while 'trying' to look at stuff. Sometimes I go flying around to find low level quests I might have missed because I was too busy dodging mobs or figuring out the secret way around the mountain before. Sometimes I just spend time relaxing by practicing loops or 'barrel rolls' on my nether ray. Sometimes I like to jump off high places and switch to flight form just before hitting the ground for fun. I like to watch my pet find creative ways to get up somewhere when I'm hovering above it.... It doesn't always have to be about Warcraft, sometimes it can be just about World. Yes, I can still do all those things in the old areas, but I'd like to do them in new areas as well, who knows what I haven't discovered yet!
As for immersion, first off getting stuck in bugged scenery in Nagrand and having to hearth out and take the flight-path back is not very immersive. Secondly how do they explain that flight-masters can train their mounts to fly across Draenor but we can't, that would only make sense if all flight-paths were passenger airplanes flown by goblins or something. If not flight, at least give us mountain climbing gear. :p
Being able to fly around on gryphons or dragons was one of the reasons I preferred WoW over other mmo's, gameplay-wise. Maybe flying is important to some people because it is a fantasy, two things a lot of people dream of are being a hero and being able to fly. Performing ropewalking and jumping tricks to find treasures just doesn't have the same appeal to me.
In any case, it is their game and their decision, but the way they went about it along with how unimaginative the game is becoming means I probably won't be returning for future expansions.
Post by
asakawa
I remember Guild Wars 2 having a nice system of small challenges, the only reward for which was a "Vista" (camera sweeps around you as you stand in the interesting place you reached). I'm not usually one for these sorts of activities but I often found myself taking the extra time to reach those spots. Basically what I'm saying is that I'm sympathetic to your point of view but flying mounts isn't necessarily the only way to provide that kind of game play. I would hope that Blizz would look to supplement the game with more ways to gain a nice vista in light of the removal of flight.
Post by
darkelemental1
@Jarcyu *applause* Very good ^_^
I still disagree though. You're still essentially saying that you can see something while flying and go and engage it, which is fine and I agree, but it's the things you wouldn't see or even the things you would see but would ignore, that you would miss out on. Maybe Blizz would need to design with this in mind too, putting less "trash" and more interesting things in the world between hubs but it's still a principle I can get behind.
But again, flying has often been an after content addition. you get it at max level or after requirements are met. By that point you have gone to the interesting places, seen the interesting things, and the 'hidden' treasures are long under your level to be little more than flavor items any longer. As you say it was a choice by blizzard to not design the world to be more engaging, but punishing those that enjoyed their way of getting around at max level is simply shifting the blame for faulty design. People wont sudden go out and appreciate the world more now, this only deepens the isolation this xpac has created, not help fix it, it fixes nothing.
Post by
oracle1972
Blizzard is removing flying going forward but why put more flying mounts on the online store and recruit a friend then. We did a mount protest march against this to show we the actual players of the game are against it. Should it not be the players that matter more than what the devs want in the game all the time.
Post by
PTsICU
Blizzard is removing flying going forward but why put more flying mounts on the online store and recruit a friend then. We did a mount protest march against this to show we the actual players of the game are against it. Should it not be the players that matter more than what the devs want in the game all the time.
I would agree with the point that it seems Blizzard has been a bit shady with how this has been handled. We've gotten flight in every expansion since flight was introduced, and there was no good reason for anyone to expect that to change. Blizzard mentioning that it may be a patch or so before they put it in this xpack, while still promoting flying mounts for sale, and then keeping quite for the most part about this true intention of not allowing it altogether is......a very dishonest way of treating the customers IMO.
I've dealt with having no flying this expansion, but will admit it has made me less inclined to go out in the world once I have gotten what I have to have from it initially. It's just way too painful for me to go out and do archaeology, or pet battle, or even to be bothered to fish. Much less go back over content to explore a few small things I may have missed while questing the first couple of times. I now spend my time tending my garrison on all my characters, going back to MoP and the old world zones to do pet dailies, collecting, running old raids for items I want, etc.
If they intend this to be the norm going forward, I will have to consider not spending anymore money on this game, as it simply will stop being what I've found enjoyable for all these years. Yes, flying was that important to me. And I don't think I'm the only one that feels that way.
We'll see when new numbers come out in the future, and how many subs they continue to hemorrhage.
Post by
Alkony
Flying is an issue of freedom. I play WoW as a fantasy escape from real life, and being able to fly on a dragon or phoenix is an aspect of that. Adding the third axis to our movement is a huge leap in how much control we have over ourselves.
I miss the "Wheee!" feeling I had taking off for the first time. And again when I took off for my first aerial tour of Stormwind. My druid has had her wings clipped, and that makes me sad enough to seriously detract from my enjoyment of the entire game. (Whether you think that's a justified reaction or not, asakawa, it is the way I feel.) Players who do not enjoy the game become ex-players.
Part of the problem is that I (and from what they have said many others) feel strung along, effectively lied to, by the hemming and hawing that Blizzard has done for over a year about when/if flight would be enabled for max level characters. There were posts made by Blizzard employees speaking from a place of authority that said "you will get it later". Not 'might' but 'will'.
The timing of the announcement is also bad. Released via third party on a Friday afternoon before Memorial Day holiday weekend, this smacks of the worst of "hide it by releasing it when no one's watching" political shenanigans. It was cowardly timing and further contributes to the feeling of being duped.
I spent $20 extra to get a flying mount with my WoD purchase. I did not, and would not, intend to pay that money for a ground mount when a nearly identical mount already is available in the game. I made the purchase based on past history of the game. EVERY expansion for WoW has enabled flying at or before level cap. Every single one. Until now.
Blizzard is dealing with a 6 month net loss of 300k subscribers (Q3 2014-Q1 2015) so the status quo of WoD is
not
working. And there are lots of people who are posting screen shots of their sub cancellation screen in the 400+ page thread in the official General Discussion, so this isn't purely a hot air reaction to their doubling down on hobbling players movement options.
-------
No flying in Dreanor is not enough, in and of itself, to make me quit the game. But it has forced me to re-evaluate my play time, and I'm not sure hopping from Garrison to LFD, to Garrison, to LFR is really the way I want to spend my time. I have no motivation to go out into the world when the "challenges" are meerly annoying. Between feign death, shadow meld, invisibility, etc. there's no need to fight the mobs in the way even without flight.
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