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10.2.7
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The Future of Lordaeron
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Post by
Rankkor
I thought that you where going to point out a dwarf and some night elf running around killing blood elves, sabotaging arcane sanctums and spionage in the high kingdom when the Sin'dorei where neutral.
yeah.......... well.......... THEM TOO!!!
Post by
morginar
And before someone brings up Putress, then i can rise with Blackmoore, benedictus, Mekgineer Thermaplugg and Fandral.
He is not horde.
Post by
Snake387
*Cough* The Broken Front *Cough*
*Cough* Attack on Gilneas while Gilneas was neutral *Cough*
*Cough* Taking Night Elven land in Ashenvale *Cough*
And don't try bringing up the purge again. The Sunreavers as a faction were pro-horde and used Dalaran portals to try to give the Horde an upper hand in the Alliance-Horde War. Also, in the game-guide (which as you know, not any old shmuck can edit) there is no mention of the tauren going into the horde because of the Dwarves. It only says that the Tauren were helped by the Horde to fight off the Centaur and the Tauren owed (and liked) them for that.
Post by
morginar
The Sunreavers as a faction were pro-horde
False there was one confirmed inflitrator and one belived inflitrator.
the Horde an upper hand in the Alliance-Horde War
Like the kirin tor haven tried that for the alliance before.
there is no mention of the tauren going into the horde because of the Dwarves.
Ofcourse not. Dwarves happened later. When the bearded ones came to kalimdor around vanilla/cata.*
*Din't play vanilla, so i do not know when that conflict started.
*Cough* The Broken Front *Cough*
He was claiming that the horde havent backstabed anyone. We tell otherwise. But meh, being good is only boring in any universe. Go With King of Angmar!
*Cough* Attack on Gilneas while Gilneas was neutral *Cough*
*Cough* Taking Night Elven land in Ashenvale *Cough*
Garrosh, the one we are killing in 5.4 is behind those.
Post by
Snake387
Garrosh, the one we are killing in 5.4 is behind those.
Yes, Garrosh was behind those, when the horde was behind him. He was the warchief of the horde at that time and the horde weren't rebelling at that time. Thus, you can pin it on the horde. And if you can't, then arguing about this is pointless since:
a) Most Alliance attacks in Cata/Mists were in retaliation to Horde (Who Garrosh was leading) aggression.
b) It automatically gives the horde a get out of jail free card.
False there was one confirmed inflitrator and one belived inflitrator.
Horde quests chain. Says there 'The Sunreavers risk their neutrality by helping us.", "The Sunreavers are complicit." And the Sunreavers DID know about the Darnassus betrayal:
Lady Jaina Proudmoore yells: Your people are legitimate prisoners of war. They orchestrated an attack on Darnassus from MY city-
Lor'themar Theron yells: The Sunreavers knew NOTHING of Garrosh's raid on Darnassus!
Aethas Sunreaver shifts uncomfortably.
Post by
morginar
Aethas Sunreaver shifts uncomfortably.
It's actualy more likley he needed to pee in that senario. And yes i did do the math.
And it looks like someone needs a update:
When the continent of Pandaria was discovered by Horde forces, Lor'themar and the blood elves were invited to help conquer the new land, but the sinister methods of Warchief Garrosh Hellscream led Lor'themar to reconsider his position. The regent lord initiated conversations with King Varian Wrynn, hoping to rejoin the Alliance, but Garrosh sabotaged his diplomatic efforts by organizing a heist in Darnassus and
focusing blame on the blood elves
. Now resigned to the eventuality of intra-factional war, Lor'themar awaits the right moment to rise up against Garrosh and restore the glory of his people.
They where blamed. Meaning: Not Guilty.
They guilty needs not be blamed.
Post by
Snake387
They where blamed. Meaning: Not Guilty.
Nope. Actually it says the blame was FOCUSED on them, which means that Garrosh made out that everything was the Blood Elve's fault when he was the one who came up with and executed the idea.
So...now we've got everything cleared up and Jaina was indeed justified in doing the purge, what's the next thing? Theramore? The Orc's took prisoners, heck even children. That is, if SoO stays the same as it is in the PTR.
Post by
morginar
Nope. Actually it says the blame was FOCUSED on them, which means that Garrosh made out that everything was the Blood Elve's fault when he was the one who came up with and executed the idea.
One rogue = The entierty of his faction and race? And it Blood elves, no apostrophe in it.
The focusing in this content would suggest that he focused the blame soly on blood elves and no others. No trolls, no undead, no tauren, no orksesses.(Golum Golum)
So...now we've got everything cleared up and Jaina was indeed justified in doing the purge, what's the next thing? Theramore? The Orc's took prisoners, heck even children. That is, if SoO stays the same as it is in the PTR.
This debate has been up for quite some pages in this thread and you could summon the Rankkor for further info.
And Jaina was not justified in doing the purge. Or should all humans be exterminated dalek-style for Kel'Thuzad, Argual, Arthas, Benedictus, Scarlet crusade and more? Perhaps all Satyrs are cool now due to the one satyr in Ashenvale seeking redemtion. And if you find Dalaran purge justified then ambermill alone would make a supper purge of humans inside the Kirin Tor.
Perhaps we should lock Wrathion up for he is a black dragon, thus he must be evil.
Garrosh =/= Horde.
And by Theramore you mean the Rexxar campain in WC3? That campain do remind me of SoO in the endgame.
Post by
Monday
The Sunreavers as a faction were pro-horde
False there was one confirmed inflitrator and one belived inflitrator.
lolwut. The Sunreavers are a Horde institution. There is no if/and/or/but about it.
Post by
morginar
The Sunreavers as a faction were pro-horde
False there was one confirmed inflitrator and one belived inflitrator.
lolwut. The Sunreavers are a Horde institution. There is no if/and/or/but about it.
Well, they are in a neutral organisation the Kirin Tor so they should be neutral with ties to the Horde.
They are not the lapdogs of the horde, Aethas states that in Silvermoon when they open the sha-box before rommath bonks him with his staff.
Post by
Monday
The Sunreavers as a faction were pro-horde
False there was one confirmed inflitrator and one belived inflitrator.
lolwut. The Sunreavers are a Horde institution. There is no if/and/or/but about it.
Well, they are in a neutral organisation the Kirin Tor so they should be neutral with ties to the Horde.
They are not the lapdogs of the horde, Aethas states that in Silvermoon when they open the sha-box before rommath bonks him with his staff.
Take a look here
. Just by the opening paragraphs, they are very much a Horde institution.
Post by
4dehorde
Garrosh, the one we are killing in 5.4 is behind those.
Yes, Garrosh was behind those, when the horde was behind him. He was the warchief of the horde at that time and the horde weren't rebelling at that time. Thus, you can pin it on the horde. And if you can't, then arguing about this is pointless since:
a) Most Alliance attacks in Cata/Mists were in retaliation to Horde (Who Garrosh was leading) aggression.
b) It automatically gives the horde a get out of jail free card.
False there was one confirmed inflitrator and one belived inflitrator.
Horde quests chain. Says there 'The Sunreavers risk their neutrality by helping us.", "The Sunreavers are complicit." And the Sunreavers DID know about the Darnassus betrayal:
Lady Jaina Proudmoore yells: Your people are legitimate prisoners of war. They orchestrated an attack on Darnassus from MY city-
Lor'themar Theron yells: The Sunreavers knew NOTHING of Garrosh's raid on Darnassus!
Aethas Sunreaver shifts uncomfortably.
In Cataclysm it was Alliance responding to Horde aggression? If memory serves it was the Alliance that invaded the Barrens and massacred Taurajo and other villages. It was the Alliance that invaded Silverpine, Western Plaguelands, and attempted to invade Hillsbrad. It was the Alliance that sent entire legions to the Barrens and Swamp of Sorrows for no other reason than to attack the Horde. It was the Alliance that started the whole damn war in the first place.
Horde aggression my rear end.
Its likely the Sunreaver defectors were feeding misinformation to players to make the operation seem more legit. Personally I think its more likely Aethas was nervous because, you know, Jaina pretty much wanted to string him up from a tree.
The entire Purge of Dalaran was completely unjustified and as both Morginar and Rankkor pointed out the Kirin Tor has done its own share of aiding another faction (the Alliance) while claiming to be neutral. When it comes right down to it I think Jaina has become a racist bigot just like her father, whose thoughtless, reckless and morally corrupt actions will earn her a sword through the skull, again just like her father.
Post by
Adamsm
It was the Alliance that invaded SilverpineWell only after the Forsaken invaded Gilneas, a at the time neutral country....
Western Plaguelands, and attempted to invade Hillsbrad.WPL was more Horde aggression to the Alliance...what with killing those farmers, then using the Valks to raise up the dead. And I believe bombing Southshore into a lake of Blight was an act of aggression from the Forsaken first; the Stormpike forces only started fighting back after that act.
Post by
4dehorde
It was the Alliance that invaded SilverpineWell only after the Forsaken invaded Gilneas, a at the time neutral country....
Western Plaguelands, and attempted to invade Hillsbrad.WPL was more Horde aggression to the Alliance...what with killing those farmers, then using the Valks to raise up the dead. And I believe bombing Southshore into a lake of Blight was an act of aggression from the Forsaken first; the Stormpike forces only started fighting back after that act.
Silverpine was still an invasion no matter how you try to spin it. And do you honestly believe the Alliance wouldn't have invaded the region had the Forsaken not attacked Gilneas? Varian publically announced his desire to steal all of Lordaeron from the Forsaken.
First of all, those weren't farmers at Felstone Field, those were soldiers. The quest even tells you this. Secondly, skirmishes had been going on for years between Tarren Mill and Southshore long before the Blight entered the picture. The Forsaken simply chose to deal with the human aggressors once and for all. While tragic and perhaps a bit overkill, the attack on Southshore was itself completely justified.
Post by
Adamsm
And do you honestly believe the Alliance wouldn't have invaded the region had the Forsaken not attacked Gilneas?Honestly, yes, since the Alliance had been fine with merely remaining at the borders before now.
Varian publically announced his desire to steal all of Lordaeron from the Forsaken.So that justifies the Forsaken slaughtering the original inhabitants of a land that hadn't raised a weapon against them? Leaving out the fact that while you talk about Varian 'stealing' Lordaeron, Sylvanas is doing the exact same thing: She sends her forces to invade Gilneas, invade Hillsbrad, invade Arathi, invade the Hinterlands, and start spreading out into the Plaguelands...and be damned to the people who had been there first. So watch the stones there, since pretty much every single thing you can accuse Varian of, Sylvanas has actually done it.
First of all, those weren't farmers at Felstone Field, those were soldiersThose weren't Forsaken lands; the owner of the lands was located in Stormwind, so those Alliance forces were reclaiming territory that already belonged to a human....or does her claim not count?(Original quest line)
The Forsaken simply chose to deal with the human aggressors once and for all.Again, the Forsaken attacked Southshore first; that is the aggression..and the quests in Hillsbrad back then, for Alliance side, did not have anything to do with the Forsaken/Horde, unlike the quests in Tarren Mill where you did stir up problems(summoning a Lich to assault the town anyone, sending in Forsaken assassins to kill the Mayor?).
While tragic and perhaps a bit overkill, the attack on Southshore was itself completely justified.Bull @#$%, since any movement beyond the borders of Tirisfal is an invasion...after all, the people of Southshore have been there for a long time and having their lands invaded by the Undead can't be seen as justified in any way...after all, civilians were slaughtered, lands was taken from the rightful owners, and those who 'escaped' ended up dead anyways in the maw of the Forsaken war machine.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Adamsm, why are you bothering with him? He's only going to harp on the same points for infinitum. Just ignore him, like he ignores canon sources.
Post by
4dehorde
And do you honestly believe the Alliance wouldn't have invaded the region had the Forsaken not attacked Gilneas?Honestly, yes, since the Alliance had been fine with merely remaining at the borders before now.
Varian publically announced his desire to steal all of Lordaeron from the Forsaken.So that justifies the Forsaken slaughtering the original inhabitants of a land that hadn't raised a weapon against them? Leaving out the fact that while you talk about Varian 'stealing' Lordaeron, Sylvanas is doing the exact same thing: She sends her forces to invade Gilneas, invade Hillsbrad, invade Arathi, invade the Hinterlands, and start spreading out into the Plaguelands...and be damned to the people who had been there first. So watch the stones there, since pretty much every single thing you can accuse Varian of, Sylvanas has actually done it.
First of all, those weren't farmers at Felstone Field, those were soldiersThose weren't Forsaken lands; the owner of the lands was located in Stormwind, so those Alliance forces were reclaiming territory that already belonged to a human....or does her claim not count?(Original quest line)
The Forsaken simply chose to deal with the human aggressors once and for all.Again, the Forsaken attacked Southshore first; that is the aggression..and the quests in Hillsbrad back then, for Alliance side, did not have anything to do with the Forsaken/Horde, unlike the quests in Tarren Mill where you did stir up problems(summoning a Lich to assault the town anyone, sending in Forsaken assassins to kill the Mayor?).
While tragic and perhaps a bit overkill, the attack on Southshore was itself completely justified.Bull @#$%, since any movement beyond the borders of Tirisfal is an invasion...after all, the people of Southshore have been there for a long time and having their lands invaded by the Undead can't be seen as justified in any way...after all, civilians were slaughtered, lands was taken from the rightful owners, and those who 'escaped' ended up dead anyways in the maw of the Forsaken war machine.
Sorry, but then you have no clue about what's going on. When the Alliance started the war they made their mission clear: the annihilation of the Horde. That means sooner or later the Alliance would attempt to invade Lordaeron and they did, four times now.
First of all, the only case where the Forsaken ever attacked anyone who did not raise a hand against them was Gilneas. Every other time they were retaliating against Alliance and Scarlet aggression. Secondly, Sylvanas is not stealing Lordaeron, she is securing it. The Forsaken, as the rightful heirs to Lordaeron, are entitled to the land that belongs to them, and to be honest if they have to slaughter every human, dwarf, and worgen in their way, so be it. That's the price they pay for invading and occupying Forsaken land.
And a Forsaken by the name of Jeremiah Payson, formerly Jeremiah Felstone, is just as entitled to it as her. And btw, those soldiers were not claiming the field for her, they were taking it for the army.
The humans at Southshore and Hillsbrad Fields attacked first, as the old quest "Dangerous!" clearly shows. Check up on your facts kid. The Forsaken were always on the defensive until Cataclysm when they finally started striking back, and I couldn't be happier.
Incorrect. As I already pointed out the Forsaken are entitled to all of Lordaeron, and since the humans of Southshore would not stop attacking the Forsaken and since there was a war going and it was a military target, the Forsaken were completely justified in removing it from play. You don't have to like it but that's how it is. Most people actually evacuated from the town before the attack and the ONLY reason they were killed later was cause they took up arms against the Forsaken when they became worgen.
Adamsm, why are you bothering with him? He's only going to harp on the same points for infinitum. Just ignore him, like he ignores canon sources.
Ah and here we have another lie about me. The lies people make up about me when they can't prove me wrong are no longer amusing. I never ignore canon sources, not now not ever. I find it sad when people can't just tell the truth.
Post by
Adamsm
Check up on your facts kid. Dial back the aggression Kid.
Beyond that, have a good day, since Oneforthemoney has a point; there is point to the 'discussion' anymore.
Post by
4dehorde
Check up on your facts kid. Dial back the aggression Kid.
Beyond that, have a good day, since Oneforthemoney has a point; there is point to the 'discussion' anymore.
I'm the one being aggressive? I'm not the one cursing. And since you can't accept basic, proven facts or provide sources, I agree :)
Edit: BTW, you call the Forsaken monsters for killing civilians at Southshore, but I don't see you condemning the Alliance for doing the same thing at Taurajo. Typical Alliance fan hypocrisy.
Edit 2: I saw that post you made before deleting it. More lies as usual. Since you can't prove me wrong you resort to outright lying to try and get your way. I am here to discuss the truth pal and if you can't do that you have no place here.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Edit: BTW, you call the Forsaken monsters for killing civilians at Southshore, but I don't see you condemning the Alliance for doing the same thing at Taurajo. Typical Alliance fan hypocrisy.
For anyone who still believes this is a discussion worth having, you may refer to the past fifteen pages on this exact subject and the progress made there.
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