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Arthas: A Discussion
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Post by
328991
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Random0008
Ok. I want all the people who went against Arthas to pick one.
A) Give the villagers quick and painless death and save a million people.
B) Let them be and let them have a slow and painful death by the Scourge and give the Scourgs vast reinforcements.
C) Make someone create a portal and bring there all priests of the kingdom?
I'm not saying this was the ultimate solution, I only wantd to underline how I do not believe there are only two chances for every matter
Ofc. I mean obviously the portal would open in the exact same place where all the priests of the kingdom were waiting in full gear.
The Scourge was bearing down on them as they were talking.
You still have to pick one.
Post by
Queggy
The Scourge was bearing down on them as they were talking.
Correct, a portal wouldn't have worked. During the level in War3, you had to rush against time before the dreadlord collected more villagers.
Edit - Arthas also didn't have a mage powerful enough (Such as Antonidas, Kael, or Jaina) there to make such a portal.
Post by
166613
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Blackboy0
Here's a thought; Arthas didn't become weak, he became lazy.
Arthas had to make a decision, a horrible decision, at Stratholme. Rather than accept the fact that making the horrible decisions is part of the duty of a leader/ruler, he wanted to make sure he never had to make that kind of decision again. So, in order to avoid his responsibility as a leader, he sought the power to destroy the Lich King, NOT because the Lich King was evil, but because the Lich King had forced Arthas to make a horrific choice. So, kill the Lich King, and Arthas doesn't have to make the tough calls again.
Like many shortcuts and schemes to avoid responsibility, it didn't work the way Arthas had expected.
Well, he got seduced and driven crazy by Ner'zhul, which made him become weak.
Post by
Cimno
Arthas was doing what he believed to be right for his land. The turning point of Arthas' sanity was when he upheld Frostmourne, and lost his soul for it. Stratholme was not when Arthas lost his mind, it was later on Northrend. He wanted to finish the war so badly, that he "Would pay any price for his people." and he payed a more ultimate one than you could expect.
Ask Chromie, that's right what Chromie says: Stratholme is Arthas turning point
And you talk about taking Frostmore, the evil blade, as turning point.
So destroying his ships in Northrenth using mercenaries and then tell his men that it was those mercenaries and slaying thm all was lead by his good heart,wasn't it?
Oh, yes it was for a higher good...
Yet, if you ask which was "MORALLY" good, you would choose as Arthas did. Rather than let every single one of Stratholme's citizans become mindless scourge, which could amass a force that could easily topple any force that the Alliance could muster.
Or destroy a city, which was under attack by the Scourge anyway. I'd count it as collateral.
Post by
Skyfire
Yet, if you ask which was "MORALLY" good, you would choose as Arthas did.
Definitely not. The moral good here is to
not
slaughter anyone, or slaughter them after becoming undead. We can see this with the knowledge of history; as the Lich King now, Arthas drives a Scourge that is many times greater than the Scourge was or could have been then. And thus, the moral wrong is definitely to slaughter the people before they became less than human.
Post by
Blackboy0
Definitely not. The moral good here is to not slaughter anyone, or slaughter them after becoming undead. We can see this with the knowledge of history; as the Lich King now, Arthas drives a Scourge that is many times greater than the Scourge was or could have been then. And thus, the moral wrong is definitely to slaughter the people before they became less than human.
What Arthas did was the "morally right" thing to do. He killed them before they became Scourge, which would amass and destroy a lot of Azeroth.
And thus, the moral wrong is definitely to slaughter the people before they became less than human.
Which is exactly what Cimno said =P
Post by
Skyfire
What Arthas did was the "morally right" thing to do. He killed them before they became Scourge, which would amass and destroy a lot of Azeroth.
As I said earlier, consider that because of Stratholme, Arthas became the Lich King. As the Lich King, he has taken more souls than even the strongest armies that could have been created at Stratholme. Which means the moral wrong was to kill.
Which is exactly what Cimno said =P
Which is exactly not what Cimno said. Reparse please.
Post by
Blackboy0
So what would you have done if you were in Arthas' place? Would you have waited 'til the people turned into mindless scourge,
then
rushed out and killed them all?
Post by
Random0008
As I said earlier, consider that because of Stratholme, Arthas became the Lich King. As the Lich King, he has taken more souls than even the strongest armies that could have been created at Stratholme. Which means the moral wrong was to kill.
He didn't know he was turning into The Lich King. Plans don't always work out.
To summarise this up, in a nutshell :
He lost the bet. He took a risk and it backfired.
Tbh, I would like to kill Uther and Jaina before we are able to kill Arthas. It's their fault about what happened to Arthas.
Edit : Grammar ftw.
Post by
Cimno
In all honesty, all of this is Jaina's fault. Since she could not convince Arthas to be weary of The Guardian's (Medievh) pleads for them to venture to Kalimdor, so he destroyed Stratholme, and thus set out to Northrend in search of Mal'ganis.
Everyone point fingers at Jaina!
Post by
Skyfire
He didn't know he was turning into The Lich King. Plans don't always work out. To summarise this up, in a nutshell: He lost the bet. He took a risk and it backfired.
Tbh, I would like to kill Uther and Jaina before we are able to kill Arthas. It's their fault about what happened to Arthas.
It doesn't matter if he didn't know what exactly he would become, only that he knew that what he was doing was
wrong
, in the strongest sense of the word. If he had chosen the path of good, which to me was simply to focus his efforts on Kel'Thuzad (was he dead yet?) and Mal'Ganis, he would not have committed the (I hesitate to use this word) sin of pride. Killing off the still-living of Stratholme was a moral wrong.
Cimno: Lol at "Blame Jaina". I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm. :P
Blackboy: Either that or turned away, to prepare defenses for towns which had not been assailed yet.
Post by
Cimno
He didn't know he was turning into The Lich King. Plans don't always work out. To summarise this up, in a nutshell: He lost the bet. He took a risk and it backfired.
Tbh, I would like to kill Uther and Jaina before we are able to kill Arthas. It's their fault about what happened to Arthas.
It doesn't matter if he didn't know what exactly he would become, only that he knew that what he was doing was
wrong
, in the strongest sense of the word. If he had chosen the path of good, which to me was simply to focus his efforts on Kel'Thuzad (was he dead yet?) and Mal'Ganis, he would not have committed the (I hesitate to use this word) sin of pride. Killing off the still-living of Stratholme was a moral wrong.
Also, lol at "Blame Jaina". I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm. :P
Think about it thoroughly, though. If they had both gone to Kalimdor, Arthas' men would follow, which is a large number of units, mind you. The Paladins of the Silver Hand would not be disbanded, Arthas and Jaina would happily be kvorking about Kalimdor, making a new home for them until they encounter the Night Elves, while the northern Eastern Kingdoms rots.
--To the Blackboy comment.--
To what avail, Sky? Those forces would fall even faster with the huge undead army of Stratholme. It is called the "Second largest city in the Lordaeron Area." for a reason.
Post by
Patty
Hmmm this all seems to sound like it is going into a philosophical debate...makes for an active forum hopefully!
To be honest, there was probably a conflict of three ideas:
Sanctity of Life, that is, to say...All life is precious under any circumstances, and should NEVER be taken. ie. Even if they \would turn into zombies, don't take their lives whilst they are human, civilised and decent people.
Quality of Life, if I left these people to die, what would their last few minutes/hours/days be like? Would killing them now be more mercyful on them?
Protection of Lives: Is killing these thousands of people for the greater good? Is it morally acceptable and will the sacrifice be worth it?
These were probably running through his mind, and decided to personally see that they were killed before Mal'Ganis would turn them into undead.
This also reminds me of a tale I have heard of. After the Romans invaded Jerusalem and the Roman Empire went catholic, Jews were forced to leave the Holy Land. 1,000 Jews hid on a mountain overlooking Jerusalem, and it was so steep that the Romans could not climb it. The Jews lived there happily for almost a year, finding water and food supplies on this mountain.
However, the Romans, the brilliant architects that they were, built a large ramp up the mountain to make it approachable and the Jews knew when the ramp was completed they would be killed, so they voted for 10 men to kill the others, 1 to kill the other 9, and then himself. This was an act of defiance against the Romans and when they came to the top of the mountain, they met silence. 2 women and 3 children hid in an enclave howver, and weren't hugely persecuted because they were the "legacy" of this tale.
The two stories are very different, but it shows that people wish to choose when they die, even when facing impending doom...and Arthas never let the people of Stratholme choose. Also, some uninfected people may have been slain by Arthas, whereas if they were more informed, more survivors could have been around perhaps?
Sorry for veering off-topic, I just think that the extermination of people like that is similar to genocide, and the infected could have died in a more dignified way.
Post by
Skyfire
Think about it thoroughly, though.
Have you tried to convince the stubborn? Have you tried to convince the prideful? Have you tried to convince the dutiful? Have you been successful in your endeavors? It's not her fault, and forcing him to come would have only made him fall quicker to madness; angry at his beloved and thinking she had betrayed him and his people, he would have still turned to his recklessness and sought the Lich King or Mal'Ganis.
To what avail, Sky? Those forces would fall even faster with the huge undead army of Stratholme. It is called the "Second largest city in the Lordaeron Area." for a reason.
You bring up the answer. Leave Lordaeron to wither and die on the vine. Further, at some point, Ner'zhul the Lich King would have suffered the attack from afar by Illidan; alone to himself, or perhaps with his nathrezim jailers, he would have been finished, and there would be no more war.
Arthas never let the people of Stratholme choose.
I like this point.
Post by
166613
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skyfire
"Arthas never let the people of Stratholme choose." How? Go up to each citizen and say "You have to commit suicide now, otherwise these soldiers will be forced to kill you"? How many people lived in Stratholme?
Well, that's a biased way to ask the question. A better way would simply have left it at "how?". A way for me to answer the non-biased question is to simply make them aware that they will undie; from my brief gleaning of the Culling of Stratholme (not having played WoW since vanilla), the citizenry simply knew they were all getting sick, and not that they were becoming the undead. Arthas similarly made no attempt to inform them of what was coming.
There was no saving the infected, but that doesn't mean he had to kill them to save himself and the rest of Lordaeron.
And if they become part of the Scourge, Arthas becomes responsible for every person they kill. He could have stopped them; but didn't.
He was already responsible for the people of Lordaeron against the Scourge; don't make like this would have added to the weight.
Yes, killing the people in Stratholme is morally wrong. Are you saying that Arthas' moral purity is more important than the lives the Scourged citizens of Stratholme would have killed?
The answer unambiguously is "yes", because if he had had the moral right in his heart, he would have seen that he was acting without care or worry that what he was doing was wrong.
Where Arthas failed is not in what he did in Stratholme, but what he did afterwards. He allowed his personal desires to overcome the needs of his country.
Watch the first Culling of Stratholme video from Project Lore. He was way across the line before he even began, and you'll see that easily.
Post by
154720
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Morec0
My opinion is that Arthas could have placed Stratholme in a quarantine,by building baricades in the city's gates and placing guard patrolers on them,so that undead couldn't escape Stratholme and his claims about the plague d citizenswould turn true.
- If you played the campain in WC3 then you would know that the villagers turn into undead shortly after their houses are destroyed. Now, while in the game it only takes a few seconds to build towers and such, there is no way - lore-wise - they could be a full barricade up that fast. The Scouge would overun the workers.
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