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Alliance Blood Elves?
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Post by
Lordplatypus
Illidari elves are the ones that joined kael thas with the naga.
The rest were left behind with Lor'themar Theron.
Following a series of events in the so called "Human" Section of the frozen throne storyline. the Illidari elves are in the black temple alongside illidan and the naga.
Do read some facts sometimes.
Oh and about what i said? I would do it.
It's called realism, Jaina did what was right for once.
Post by
Adamsm
Yes, because attempted genociding is always a good idea.....especially on the people who had nothing at all to do with an attack /roll eyes
Also, the elves who went with Kael into Outland are called
Kael's Forces
; they came back to Silvermoon to deliver Mu'ru at one point.
Lor'themar stepped up after the imprisonment happened to try to take back their lands while they waited for news from their Prince(as seen in the Sunwell Trilogy); please, learn your facts.
Post by
Rankkor
Illidari elves are the ones that joined kael thas with the naga.
The rest were left behind with Lor'themar Theron.
Following a series of events in the so called "Human" Section of the frozen throne storyline. the Illidari elves are in the black temple alongside illidan and the naga.
What? dude. please. Read the article (and the citations of it, any schmuck can write an article on wowpedia, but it must be backed up with citations to quests, or lore from the expanded universe, that's what the little numbers like mean at the end of each paragraph.
Stay with me, I know you can do it: Kael took elves to outland. Kael's Elves split off. Part went to shatt to become Scryers, Part stayed with Illidan (namely the Eclipsion elves) and part remained with Kael and served the legion (mostly the Sunfury but there were others)
Its not my problem if you wanna believe otherwise, all the quests in TBC point out in no uncertain terms that there was a major split on the elves who followed Kael to outland. And NONE of them joined the horde. The ones that joined the horde were the ones who never even traveled to outland in the first place, the Silvermoon Elves.
Do read some facts sometimes.
To bad you always get them wrong, or only see the parts that interest you and ignore the rest.
Oh and about what i said? I would do it.
It's called realism
The rest of the world
calls it something else.
its called
several things.
And those who support and avow these are despicable.
May god have mercy on your soul. It sickens me that people like you are out there, and I'm grateful that you're not in any real position of power to carry out your threats.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Look: It's this way.
Kael took his warriors to lordaeron to fight the scourge while leaving the rest under lorthemar
Not long afterwards, Prince Kael'thas returned from Dalaran to proclaim the rebirth of the former high elves as the blood elves, or sin'dorei, in honor of their fallen brethren. Chosen as Regent of Quel'Thalas, Lor'themar was commanded to "safeguard the land and seek a cure for their people" while Kael'thas took a group of the blood elf forces to join the New Alliance resistance against the Scourge in Lordaeron, led by Lord Garithos. His old friend Halduron Brightwing, Ranger-General of Silvermoon, aided him in this task
Post by
morginar
I would recomend that you read
This
.
Also to quote from the story. "Several weeks ago a number of the Sunfury forces returned to us."
this sugest that the survivng members of the illidari/Kael joined up under silvermoon and possibly sunreaver.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Kael'thas, however, had not forgotten his people on Azeroth: Grand Magister Rommath and a number of magisters were sent back to Quel'Thalas, arriving with orders from the blood elven scion - Lor'themar was to protect Quel'Thalas in Kael'thas' stead
Post by
Rankkor
Look: It's this way.
Kael took his warriors to lordaeron to fight the scourge while leaving the rest under lorthemar
Not long afterwards, Prince Kael'thas returned from Dalaran to proclaim the rebirth of the former high elves as the blood elves, or sin'dorei, in honor of their fallen brethren. Chosen as Regent of Quel'Thalas, Lor'themar was commanded to "safeguard the land and seek a cure for their people" while Kael'thas took a group of the blood elf forces to join the New Alliance resistance against the Scourge in Lordaeron, led by Lord Garithos. His old friend Halduron Brightwing, Ranger-General of Silvermoon, aided him in this task
I'm not arguing that part, I'm arguing the part where you say the elves in BT were Kael'thas' elves.
The ones on BT (and shadowmoon for that matter) are the Eclipsion Elves who sided with the Illidari when Kael'thas decided to join the Legion. The ones loyal to kael are the Sunfury ones on netherstorm and quel'danas.
Post by
Lordplatypus
This is getting back to personal attacks.
Leaving Thread.
Would be best if everyone else did so too.
Lets continue this on tuesday.
EDIT: Didn't really care that much about blood elves to be honest.
To me it was just "Traitor Elves" and "Demon-Slave Elves"
Post by
Rankkor
To me it was just "Traitor Elves" and "Demon-Slave Elves"
Riiight. Garithos orders the blood elves to go die against the scourge. Blood Elves survive, so now THEY are the traitors. it had absolutely nothing to do with being incarcerated and sent to mass execution. Ohhh noooo.
/sarcasm.
Post by
Lordplatypus
well
/sarcasmon
1): Betray world to demons
2): Betray alliance post 2nd war
3): Betray alliance AGAIN post 3rd war
4): Betray Illidan
5): Working on Betraying Garrosh
6): Betray Dalaran
7): Betray the fact that they are an all women species.
maybe not seven.
Post by
Rankkor
1): Betray world to demons
Done by Kael, not by Silvermoon.
2): Betray alliance post 2nd war
in your head? sure. On the game? not really, they fought side by side, and after the war was over ALL of the nations in the alliance (not just elves) bickered and fought among each other. Gilneas even built a giant wall to separate them from their neighbors and refused to lend aid to the refugees. Why arent you calling THEM traitors?
3): Betray alliance AGAIN post 3rd war
Dude, read my lips: Garithos sent them on suicide missions against the scourge with no backup, hoping they'd all die.
how exactly are they traitors for refusing to die?
4): Betray Illidan
Done by Kael, not by Silvermoon.
5): Working on Betraying Garrosh
Right, because garrosh has done so much to earn their loyalty. You know, besides treating them (and every race in the horde that isn't an orc) worse than dirt, using them as cannon fodder, threatening to kill them if they don't get results, and using them as dispossable tools in his bid for power.
HOW DARE THEY TURN THEIR BACK ON SUCH A WONDERFUL LEADER.
/sarcasm.
6): Betray Dalaran
Sunreavers never betrayed anyone, and Fanlyr (a FORMER Kirin Tor member) did it because Garrosh Threatened to put his head (along with everyone on the Reliquary) on a spike if he didn't recovered the bell
7): Betray the fact that they are an all women species.
how do you expect to be taken seriously when you say things like these?
Post by
Rankkor
Like what? counter your arguments with quests, and facts? yeah that'll get us into trouble.
Post by
asakawa
I've removed some posts from this that were off topic and nothing but trolling and I'm now going to unlock the thread. However, I need to remind people that you're discussing an interesting fiction with friends here which means that sentences like "
It sickens me that people like you are out there
" are wholly inappropriate. Passionate is good but keep things in perspective.(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##
Post by
Lordplatypus
The entire "Traitor Elves" And all the following lines were just half-assed comedy.
Post by
Skreeran
Here's the thing with Dalaran: It's not like a police force coming around to arrest suspected criminals. Jaina is not the monarch of Dalaran, and neither is Vereesa. Dalaran is a something like a Socialist Republic, with a council of leaders who vote on important issues, but who are elected by the council, rather than the people. Jaina is the leader of the Kirin Tor, which, according to
this
, would make her merely the public face of the Council of Six. She was not carrying out the Council's orders however, but instead illegally passing judgement and sentence on her own. Vereesa then used this opportunity to attack the Sunreavers under the guise of carrying out justice.
Rather than an appointed officer of justice taking suspects into custody, the purge of Dalaran seemed more like a lynch mob rounding up members of a minority. If a crime was suspected to have originated in a black community, it would not be right for a group of white people to going around arresting every black person they saw and killing those who resisted, even if a police officer (and, say, recent victim of the alleged crime) said it was alright. Jaina and the Silver Convenant were in no legal position to carry out any arrests, nor were the Sunreavers legally bound to submit to false imprisonment. Thus, the slaughter of those who refused to go with an illegal lynch mob is nothing but murder.
Post by
Adamsm
Now that is a great way to put it Skree.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
Bravo Skree, I swear to god, I envy your eloquence so much >_>
and the Sunreavers, though citizens of Dalaran and merely being hosts to the Horde, still have links to them with the most flimsy of reasoning.
So? the human members of the Kirin Tor, though citizens of dalaran, and merely being hosts to the alliance, also have links to them, and even helped them in the past (They sent members to protect theramoore, including the leader of the council of six, and Jaina herself set up the magical barriers around Darnassus after they got the bell)
Why is it ok for the human members of the kirin tor to aid the alliance, but its appalling and unforgivable to even suspect that the sunreavers could had aided the horde?
Honestly though I wouldn't say that Jaina's characterization is bad more than the writing is bad.
Meh, I'd say both are bad. One moment she's all "I'm so sorry for what I did" and the very next "I'M SO HAPPY I DID IT, AND I'LL DO IT AGAIN IF I CAN".
One moment she says "we must trust one another" and on the next after Aethas said he had nothing to do with it she's "DOESN'T MATTER, YOU STILL WILL PAY"
That is exactly what happened with garrosh on cataclysm where they just coudln't make up their minds with how they wanted to characterize him. One moment he's honorable in stonetalon, punishing krom'gar for killing those druids, and also berating sylvannas for her use of the valks, and also forbbiding her to use the blight, and on the very next moment, he's a complete jackass who treats his enemies like a complete monster would, and then treats his own people like a tyrant would.
From thought police, to forced conscriptions, to racial segregation, to complete and utter lack of respect for his peers (he insults the other leaders, and savagely beats down anyone who questions his authority).
So blizz didn't really knew what to do with him (one moment he's not so bad, the very next he's the worst thing ever) and now they're just "ah screw it lets just get rid of him".
Jaina is looking like she's heading on the same direction.
but the player shouldn't feel as though she went bonkers, he should feel horrified at how far she's now willing to go.
Actually I feel both. Which is a damned shame because she was my second favorite character on the whole game. But as of Tides of War, I consider her dead. The jaina I actually liked and respected is gone, and what we have is a doppelanger who's trying too hard to become sylvannas 2.0
Although honestly Rank what do you expect from a plot point that was mishandled from the start?
I................. I can't really argue against that. If it started badly, there's no way it wouldn't end badly as well.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Simply put, Dalaran was an alliance city from the begining and making it neutral itself was a horrid idea.
Jaina's suffering what i can only call PTSD. She's definitely been hit hard by what happened to Theramore.
It's the same as varian feeling the effects of being seperated into two bodies or Arthas and having to kill his own people to save them.
Lets just watch which way down the road she turns.
Post by
Rankkor
Simply put, Dalaran was an alliance city from the begining and making it neutral itself was a horrid idea.
Are you sure? if they hadn't gone neutral they wouldn't had survived the nexus war. At all.
Its bad enough that they'd have to deal with the scourge and the blue dragonfligth, but also have to deal with the horde?
Going neutral was one of the best decisions they could make, because if you think about it, what is dalaran? why was it formed in the first place?
Simple: Mages wanted to do their research without being annoyed or bothered by others. The mages of stromgarde were viewed with suspicion and fear by the common population, and so were the gnome mages, and the elven mages that didn't lived in silvermoon. They formed together a coalition, and co-founded a city so they could delve into their arcane experiments in a magocracy society, away from suspicions and such.
The mages that belonged to horde races had as much to offer to the table as any other mage, and the Kirin Tor, being first and foremost a scociety of "egg-heads" (Scientist who wanted to advance their research) they wouldn't turn down an extra dose of knowledge.
By accepting mages from all races, not only they didn't had to fight the horde, they could actually count with the help of the horde, as well as the alliance, to beat the Blue Dragonflight. Too bad certain bigots had to go ahead and ruin that.
Though this is partly the fault of the Kirin Tor, because they are a lot more lax on their neutrality than other neutral factions (though they're not as bad as the earthen ring, or cenarion circle) The Argent Crusade didn't asked, they DEMANDED that you swore off any loyalty, and membership of any previous faction you were affiliated before they would take you in.
The Kirin Tor allowed their human mages to aid the alliance, and didn't protested when their blood elven mages aided the horde. This had to go ugly at some point due to
Conflict of Interest.
Quite frankly, I'm amazed this hasn't happened yet to the Cenarion Circle, or the Earthen Ring.
(Though it did happened mildly to the Circle, as the flame druids were former members who got angry that night elves and taurens were all chummy while the orcs deforested ashenvale)
Jaina's suffering what i can only call PTSD. She's definitely been hit hard by what happened to Theramore.
It's the same as varian feeling the effects of being seperated into two bodies or Arthas and having to kill his own people to save them.
Lets just watch which way down the road she turns.
Wanna place bets she becomes a villain? Every time something like this happens, we have to put them down. Maiev went through some traumatic events, eventually commited an atrocity, and now she's a wanted criminal. Arthas did a war-crime, eventually became a villain.
Also, if Jaina truly is suffering from PTSD, then it only validates my claims even more that what she did was unjustified. One of the most common ways for victims of PTSD to cope, is to vent their anger at some form of scapegoat, anything, anyone, they need someone to point the finger and unleash all their bottled up frustrations and rage. Jaina did so on an innocent group however.
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