Dear undercutters: please keep undercutting each other

Post by ElhonnaDS

Earning in wow is stupidly easy, the main trick is to just stop spending.

I spend tons of gold. It's still insanely easy to make it back, and then some.

Post by civgw

So you don't care how easy it is to earn money, because you don't want to earn money- you just want to spend it?

That's like saying that you don't care if there are plenty of jobs available, or that they all pay more than enough for someone to afford all of the things that they need and want, because you have no interest in working, and so everything should be priced at a level that will allow people who don't want to work to still afford it. You want Wowfare.

There is a difference between saying that the prices are so high that no one can afford them, and the prices are so high that no one lazy can afford them. You are arguing the second as though it's a valid point. The items on the AH represent other people's time spent. If you don't like how they value their time, then go spend your own. If you find your own time too valuable to waste gathering mats or making gold, what makes you think that everyone else in the game should place so much less value on their time than you do on yours, and price items that take time to acquire for amounts of money that take no time to acquire?

Technically, if you refuse to spend the time yourself to gather items to sell for the current AH prices, that means that YOU don't think that the reward is high enough for it to be worth it. That would mean that you would set the price higher on your own time that most people on the AH currently do. So you are complaining essentially that your time is more valuable that the gold it would generate, and so other people should stop charging that amount of gold for their time to accommodate you. Do you not see the hypocrisy in this?

It is not a matter of being lazy, you don't get eleven 85's and all the professions maxed (most more than once to cover my horde and alliance alts) by not grinding when you have to.

It's a question of priorities, spending time doing even more grinding to make money to buy at high prices is not one of mine. If I do that then my alts will take much longer to progress.

As regards the price itself, most prices are way above what I consider reasonable. A good price should be where both sides are happy not just the seller.

Maybe I am too considerate of others to play the AH.

Post by ElhonnaDS

Ok...

I have given several examples to explain that the inflation hasn't resulted in MORE time to grind gold, but in larger numbers for the SAME time spent grinding, with larger numbers on both ends. If what you sell for has gone up at the same rate as what you buy, the you will spend no more time grinding than you ever have- the pricing just changes all the way around. The increase in prices does not equal an increase in grinding time to pay them unless:

A) You are not charging market rates for your items (kind of like how if a restaurant keeps charging 25 cents a cup of coffee and $1 for a sandwich for 20 years, even when rent has gone up, and materials cost, and every one of their customers has had salary increases on par with the rate of inflation, they're being totally unrealistic and will run out of money). It's your choice to charge less than something is worth, but then don't complain that you have to work more hours to make the same money because you do so. If an average clerical worker makes $15/hour, but you only want to charge $5/hour (when you could easily get $15), then the person whose fault it is that you're working 3 times as long as everyone else to make the same money is you. You want an entire system to change back to the way it was years ago because you don't want to price what you do grind according to the current market- that's just unrealistic, and completely unnecessary.

B) You weren't doing any grinding at all, in which case any grinding you do at all is an increase in grinding.

A "good" price happens when the forces of supply and demand even out- if pricing is too low for the supply, it gets wiped out too quickly and they run out faster than they can farm it. If there the pricing is too high, then no one will buy it, and supply will accrue. What is happening on most servers is that the pricing levels out at a level where it's reasonable to enough people that the product sells at a rate that is consistent with the supply. There will always be people who think a price is too high and they will go get it themselves, no matter how low. It's unavoidable. You just happen to be one of them- sorry.

Realistically, the more money people gain from non- AH sources, the higher the "wage per hour" is in WoW, in terms of gold. In BC, if someone at end game could make 50g an hour doing quests or heroics (not grinding, but playing at-level content normally and just collecting incidental gold), then anything that took an hour to farm that cost less than 50g was money saved. When someone, in MOP, can make 200g in an hour (again, not by grinding, but just as a side effect of whatever they're doing) doing normal end game content, then anything that takes an hour to farm, and costs less than 200g, is worth it for them.

These prices wouldn't exist unless enough people were paying them to deplete the supply at a reasonable rate. If you want the prices to drop, people will have to stop buying for those prices. I know it's easy to blame the sellers, but even acting in self interest, they need to make sure that the price is at a level that will make enough customers happy to sell what they have. If I have 5 mounts to sell, then I have to price them low enough that at least 5 people will be happy with the price and pay it. It makes no sense for me to drop the price further until 100 people will pay it, though, if I only have 5 to sell, because in either case only 5 people will end up with the mount.

Not working within the existing system may seem more considerate to you, and it's your right to do so. But to make demands on everyone else on how they need to follow your self-appointed pricing scheme, and not the one that exists as a result of supply and demand, and not the pricing that is reasonable to other players who are willing to pay more, is not nearly as considerate, I think. At the end of the day, it's their stuff and they can do what they want with it- you don't have a right to it, and you haven't done anything to earn it.

Post by BlackMonarch

Okay, this thread has very clearly identified who here actually understands economics and who doesn't. I'm quite happy to see that I'm on the side of the people who do. I'm going to respond to the following comments, then turn the thread over to Elhonna.

the prices just keep going down and down and down as the Undercutters you are so fond of continue to gouge each other

you'd have all of the servers in a Battlegroup suddenly competing with each other on the AH, which would completely jack up the prices of everything

Wait, what?

For those who aren't paying attention, let's watch the instant replay:

the prices just keep going down... jack up the prices

One more time...

down... up

There is no Internet meme to describe this level of fail.

Then buy it when it's 50 silver and sell it when it's 100 gold.And what if you need the Copper when it's at 100 gold?

Then you farm some. In fact, farm a lot. Farm way more than you need, and sell the surplus at 100 gold/stack.

Like, duh.

It wasn't always this way.

In the start of Wrath, high AH prices were hellish for my first two alts on a new server. One did tailoring/ enchanting and the other mining/engineering.

You had three crafting professions and one gathering profession... and somehow your suffering was not your own fault?

Post by civgw

Post by ElhonnaDS

Despite the tone in which it was delivered, BlackMonarch's pointing out that you took professions that don't go together IS valid in terms of addressing whether you HAVE to buy such things off the AH.

WoW is set up with various systems of "Do X activity for Y reward." Everything we do in the game is aimed at getting new gear, achievements, mounts, pets, titles, money, vanity items, etc. I think most people in the game would LOVE to have all of the available rewards, but not everyone enjoys every aspect of the game, or reaches the skill level at every aspect to get all the rewards, or has the time to earn all or most of what they want.

While leveling, there are several ways to acquire gear that don't include the AH. You get gear as quest rewards, or from dungeons, or you can craft it yourself if you took the right profession. Those are three options that don't include the AH. If someone says that they hate questing, that they are tired of dungeons, and that they don't want to level the professions that specifically make gear for their class, because none of that is fun for them, then that is fine. But to then say that they HAVE to use the AH, and so they AH should be more accommodating them is not really a fair statement. They want the rewards of better gear, but they don't want to use any of the 3 systems that were designed to provide those rewards.

There are currently a lot of ways to make large amounts money in WoW (which is clearly something they have designed the game around, with mounts that cost 108k gold from a vendor). They put in professions to allow players to craft items for other players for gold. They put in professions that complimented each other so that a player could provide all or most of the mats for his crafting profession to make that gold. They put in professions like enchanting and tailoring that don't require any mat farming other than killing mobs (which you do in the course of questing and running dungeons) for people who wanted to craft, but didn't want to farm separately from basic gameplay. They put in fishing and cooking, which allow people to take whatever professions they like and still have a gathering or crafting skill that will make money (fish sell very well, as do many buff foods). They made it so that almost every mob drops SOMETHING valuable, and so even if you never touched a profession, you could still make gold while playing the game.

Your complaint is that you don't want to have to choose professions that compliment each other to provide your own mats, you don't want to have to farm other things to sell for the gold for mats, and you don't want to use the finished items from the profession to make money by posting at market value. You are basically complaining that you do want to have the benefit of being able to afford whatever you want on the AH, but you don't want to use any of the many many systems that the game has in place to allow you to earn enough money to do so. That's not the fault of every other player who is using these systems as intended. You have the right to not participate in any aspect of the game you don't want- you should play in a way that is fun for you. But don't blame everyone else for the fact that as a result of not participating in certain aspects of the game you're not benefiting from the rewards they are intended to provide.

I'm no big fan of PvP, but I love mounts and pets. There are mounts that I will never add to my collection because the sheer amount of PvP time necessary (not the BG mounts- I have those- but the ones that would require me practicing at Arenas until I got good). I'd love to have them, but it would be a lot of play time that I just would not enjoy , and I have decided it's not worth it. However, I have not created a thread about how unfair it is that I cannot have those mounts just because I don't want to PvP, and how I shouldn't have to participate in the game they way they have laid it out to get all the rewards I want. Because I understand that playing the game my own way, and not playing all the parts they designed, means that I am forgoing the things that you work towards when you play those parts.

Post by lonewarrior

Post by ElhonnaDS

It wasn't always this way.

In the start of Wrath, high AH prices were hellish for my first two alts on a new server. One did tailoring/ enchanting and the other mining/engineering.

You had three crafting professions and one gathering profession... and somehow your suffering was not your own fault?

I thought you were supposed to play this game for fun so why, if I wanted to have these professions for my alts, shouldn't I do so.

Or maybe I'm supposed to change professions when I hit max level which means either I spend a pile of money in the AH or I'm supposed to grind a new profession from scratch?

I'm sorry but I would much rather level a new alt thank you very much.

Your logic makes sense....as it applies to you.
What do you expect from the rest of us...to follow your lead?
OK...who then do you propose is going to stack the AH with items....just curious ..since we will all be out having "fun".

Government subsidies. They'll mail us mats, gems, enchants and gear every week so no one has to farm them, and nothing costs gold, and you don't even actually have to play the game anymore.

In seriousness, though, his argument boils down to "I don't want to get them myself- you still have to go get them for me, and you still have to do all the work. You just have to charge what I want to pay, instead of what you think it's worth."

Post by TheReal

I love you, ElhonnaDS.

Post by civgw

Lol some people take this game way too seriously.

Post by ElhonnaDS

Lol some people take this game way too seriously.

Like someone who had 11 85's?

Post by 781960

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Interest

Lol some people take this game way too seriously.

Like someone who had 11 85's?

You mean 11 90s. Someone should have it by now.

Post by civgw

Lol some people take this game way too seriously.

Like someone who had 11 85's?

Honestly, all I'm seeing in this thread is you being unnecessarily argumentative with civgw. He's stating what he prefers to do, he/she's not complaining. Oh and tailoring and enchanting go together quite nicely, especially back in Wrath.

Thank you, you have taken the time to read what I actually said and the context in which it was said.

You've managed to stay out of the hunting pack which is circling for blood.

Sadly the pack thing happens too often in these forums.

Post by Atik

Hell, just look at low level greens since Transmog came out: On an average, a green plate piece seems to go from anywhere from 100 gold to upwards of 800 depending on the rarity of it; while that's good for the transmog hunters, that kills those who don't like to quest or for those who want to get a bit of a jump on the next leveling section: IE buying Cataclysm greens at level 77 and being unable to do so as they are 250 or more gold a pop.

This... arguement doesn't hold any water. You never really need to buy BoEs off the auction house... ever. And doing them with any intention besides Transmog will probably always be a waste of gold.

I mean, it's possible to get to max in your starter gear. To say you need to buy greens is a flat out lie...

Post by 781960

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by BlackMonarch

Government subsidies. They'll mail us mats, gems, enchants and gear every week so no one has to farm them, and nothing costs gold, and you don't even actually have to play the game anymore.

In seriousness, though, his argument boils down to "I don't want to get them myself- you still have to go get them for me, and you still have to do all the work. You just have to charge what I want to pay, instead of what you think it's worth."

But but but... like... hope and change! We have to go "forward", not "back"! Also, Republicans hate poor people!

Honestly, all I'm seeing in this thread is you being unnecessarily argumentative with civgw. He's stating what he prefers to do, he/she's not complaining. Oh and tailoring and enchanting go together quite nicely, especially back in Wrath.

Thank you, you have taken the time to read what I actually said and the context in which it was said.

You've managed to stay out of the hunting pack which is circling for blood.

Sadly the pack thing happens too often in these forums.

Sad indeed and it definitely doesn't help if you're a newer member. It does get to be amusing to see members like ElhonnaDS act like a shark with blood in the water...due to their own lack of reading comprehension.

Maybe she's acting like a predator out for blood, or maybe she's just tired of explaining basic economics and common sense to people with "special needs".(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Sas148##DELIM##There is no need to infer that someone has "special needs" as some sort of insult.

Post by ElhonnaDS

The way I read it (and still read it, regardless about insinuations about my reading comprehension), Civgw was saying that the prices on the AH were "way above what I consider reasonable". Those were his or her EXACT words, on this page. Unless I misunderstand the meaning of the words "way above reasonable", that would mean that she or he has complaints about them. Which was what I was debating, using examples of how pricing structure in a free market economy comes to be, and how this is similar to other work = rewards structures in the game. It appeared that his or her response was that someone shouldn't have to participate in buying and selling to make enough gold to buy what they want, and that other people should be "considerate" enough to price things at a level where she could buy them without having to grind for the gold.

If the above is incorrect, please let me know what points I missed. If so, I apologize for arguing against points you don't believe. If not, then everything I said was relevant to the debate we were having. I was countering statements about what a good price should be, how the economy should work, and how people should be able to buy items from other people who do farm them at prices that they can afford without farming anything themselves. It's not predatory to have a debate about a subject you disagree on, or provide well-structured arguments with examples. Unless you're on the losing side of the debate, apparently.

Post by 781960

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by civgw

Maybe she's acting like a predator out for blood, or maybe she's just tired of explaining basic economics and common sense to people with "special needs".

Then this is what the problem is. Clearly the person she's chiding understands basic economics. Oddly enough the points she/he's debating with Civgw are things that Civgw isn't even talking about. Funny that you mention the special needs considering how you and Elhonna are completely failing to understand what Civ is talking about

The way I read it (and still read it, regardless about insinuations about my reading comprehension),It's not predatory to have a debate about a subject you disagree on, or provide well-structured arguments with examples. Unless you're on the losing side of the debate, apparently.

That's the thing though. I'm not insinuating you need to work on your reading comprehension, I'm flat out saying you do (much like a few other people in this thread). Here is why.

These are the points that Civ has been making

Convenience of small stacks on the AH.

High AH prices were hellish for 2 alts on a new server, Only bought from the AH as a last resort because of prices. Changes in inscription allow him to get missing glyphs that were expensive.

More interested in buying only because he doesn’t really sell much on the ah since he saves his extra mats for alts so he doesn’t have to use the ah.

Occasionally he sells something at what he considers to be a reasonable price.

He’d rather farm the mats than farm the gold required to buy them off the AH.

He thinks the ah prices are usually too high so on the odd occasion he sells things, he does so at a reasonable price.
And you're debating things that have nothing to do with what he's talking about. Sure you're making well thought out arguments (other than when you flip flopped on tailoring/enchanting being companion professions but by then you're just looking to prove people wrong so you probably didn't care) but the problem is, what you're doing is comparable to Civ saying "the sky is blue" and then you start saying "yeah you're wrong, water is clearly wet".

Thanks again for the support. It was getting surreal like there were two threads going at once - the one that I was participating in and this other one that was not much to do with what I actually said.
You covered most of what I would have said in my defense but I would like to add the following.

I never said that what I do is best practice or should be copied by anybody else.

I said that I thought prices were too high but I never said that sellers should take any notice of me.

I'm an alt-leveller so the recommended route of taking gathering professions to sell mats and maybe powerlevel the actual profession(s) you want in the end game is not much use to me.

Dear undercutters: please keep undercutting each other

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