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Dear undercutters: please keep undercutting each other
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Post by
311629
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
In addition to more sellers, you also have more buyers. It would smooth out price discovery immediately.Not really...because then you would have prices anywhere from 1 copper to hundreds of thousands of gold depending on the sheer number of mats up; such as right now, with the Pandaria crafting items.
If they did this, and also created some valuable gold sinks, that is, give us a real reason to earn gold, speculators would return and you'd have a very active auction house again with predictable prices and supply of everything you need at any given time.
You really wouldn't; the Auctioneer add-on's would be constantly undercutting each other, as it would be all realms with their stuff being put up, you'd have people with anywhere of one silver to several hundred gold cheaper on items that should be going for mass amounts, such as the pets or mounts, or any of the vanity greens.
Post by
TheReal
Cross-realm auction houses wouldn't be a terrible idea if they were implemented across several low-population servers. I know servers like US Mal'Ganis and Illidan have AHs so full that it wasn't that long ago the Get-All scans couldn't get it all.
Post by
Dragalthor
I currently use Auctioneer not particularly because I play the AH but because it makes it easier to buy and sell stuff and get a feel for what items are worth. On my current server Draenor, EU a full scan of the AH with the addon will take about 45mins to complete.
To me this shows that the AH is actually very healthy on my server. Prices will fluctuate on a supply and demand cycle much like it does in the real world and there is a fairly good article on the
economics of video games
here.
Post by
BlackMonarch
We really, really need cross-realm auction houses.No...no we really don't; that wouldn't fix anything
Well, thanks for that well-thought-out argument full of facts, citations, and sound logic. You've totally changed my mind on the matter.
In addition to more sellers, you also have more buyers. It would smooth out price discovery immediately.Not really...because then you would have prices anywhere from 1 copper to hundreds of thousands of gold depending on the sheer number of mats up; such as right now, with the Pandaria crafting items.
What part of "more sellers" and "more buyers" didn't you understand? Yes, people would be
posting
things at a wider range of prices, but what prices are you likely to actually see each time you log in? The low-priced items would be snatched up much more rapidly than they are now due to the larger number of buyers per AH. Similarly, anything posted at an excessively high price will be less likely to sell due to increased competition from other sellers, and people will therefore have more of an incentive to post at more normal prices.
The reality of the situation is that, in a small economy, a single person who needs to powerlevel his/her blacksmithing can drive metal prices to 2-3 times what they normally are, and a single person who spends a whole day farming ore can send prices crashing to 1/2 or 1/3 what they normally are. Prices are more stable in larger economies. This is a real phenomenon that real buyers and real sellers observe on a daily basis, and you're not going to win an argument by ignoring reality in favor of what you imagine
might
happen.
Post by
Adamsm
Similarly, anything posted at an excessively high price will be less likely to sell due to increased competition from other sellers, and people will therefore have more of an incentive to post at more normal prices.Or, alternatively, the prices just keep going down and down and down as the Undercutters you are so fond of continue to gouge each other, screwing over the economy on all realms, and making it so that anyone can get anything for a gold or less, no matter how 'rare' or 'epic' the piece is, leaving little to no reasons for gold sinks anywhere.
Also, prices aren't more stable; I've played on several larger servers, and depending on the day of the week, you can find a full stack of copper going for 50 silver to 100 gold. The simple fact in the World of Warcraft, there is no 'stable' line for costs on the AH, as there are dozens of different players who all think they know the cost of an item; expending that to a Battlegroup, or even worse, across the entire game, would just kill things, since those people would suddenly be coming into contact with others just like them, and they'd be fighting constantly to 'control' the system, which means prices most of us can't afford who don't seriously play the AH game.
Hell, just look at low level greens since Transmog came out: On an average, a green plate piece seems to go from anywhere from 100 gold to upwards of 800 depending on the rarity of it; while that's good for the transmog hunters, that kills those who don't like to quest or for those who want to get a bit of a jump on the next leveling section: IE buying Cataclysm greens at level 77 and being unable to do so as they are 250 or more gold a pop.
Post by
BlackMonarch
Similarly, anything posted at an excessively high price will be less likely to sell due to increased competition from other sellers, and people will therefore have more of an incentive to post at more normal prices.Or, alternatively, the prices just keep going down and down and down as the Undercutters you are so fond of continue to gouge each other, screwing over the economy on all realms, and making it so that anyone can get anything for a gold or less, no matter how 'rare' or 'epic' the piece is, leaving little to no reasons for gold sinks anywhere.
Well, yeah, if you want to completely ignore the players who aren't gold capped and like to make extra cash via speculation. And if you want to ignore the players who ARE gold-capped and therefore willing to pay literally any price for what they want. But hey, why pay attention to what players ACTUALLY do, when we can make stuff up?
Also, prices aren't more stable; I've played on several larger servers, and depending on the day of the week, you can find a full stack of copper going for 50 silver to 100 gold.
Then buy it when it's 50 silver and sell it when it's 100 gold.
Hell, just look at low level greens since Transmog came out:
You know, I totally would, but nobody ever sells the Soldier's Gauntlets/Belt that I need to complete my look, so I had to grind random rare mobs and loot the damn things myself.
Post by
Adamsm
Well, yeah, if you want to completely ignore the players who aren't gold capped and like to make extra cash via speculation. And if you want to ignore the players who ARE gold-capped and therefore willing to pay literally any price for what they want. But hey, why pay attention to what players ACTUALLY do, when we can make stuff up?Which is the point; look at how much *!@#$ing there is about Cross Realm Zones. If they did it with Auction Houses, which are currently 'safe' and allow people to keep their monopolies on their own servers, you would have the players up in arms over this.
Seriously, this wouldn't solve server economies, since you'd have all of the servers in a Battlegroup suddenly competing with each other on the AH, which would completely jack up the prices of everything, since very few would be going for a normalized price for items....because you know, you see that all the time on the servers now, where the AH 'barons' fight each other, and you have the random noobs who undercut everything by 80% of the price, making the items 'worthless'.
Then buy it when it's 50 silver and sell it when it's 100 gold.And what if you need the Copper when it's at 100 gold?
Post by
ElhonnaDS
@Adams- then you should go mine it yourself.
Post by
292411
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
292411
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
+1 to Strand's post. A video game economy is different than a real economy, in that everyone in it controls their own means of production. In the real world, inflation hurts because the vast majority of people exist on a salary, and so when prices of goods go up, they don't necessarily see a direct benefit- only increased cost. In wow, every person makes money by selling items directly to other people, and you can gather many valuable items with no layout of money and very minimal level requirements, so every person in the game can benefit from increased selling prices at the same time they are paying increased buying prices.
If a stack of copper is 100g, then new players can go and mine 5 stacks of copper in an hour and a half, at at level 10 make 500 gold. If they aren't miners, but for some reason they need the copper, they can go pick 5 stacks of herbs, farm 5 stacks of leather, or even go out an kill mobs to farm cloth (if they have no gathering professions at all), and make equivalent money in that period of time to the buy the copper for the same amount of time spent as if they had farmed it themselves. If the greens that people find that they could use are 250 gold, then the greens that they find that they can't use should sell just as well- you're making gold off the same system you're spending it into.
Almost every profession has a sister profession designed to make it so you don't have to rely on the AH or other players for materials. Engineering is kind of the odd man out, but you can still be fairly effective as a miner at gathering your own mats. If you have a JC or a Blacksmith, you should be a miner, if you have a leatherworker you should have a skinner, and if you have an alchemist or inscriptionist you should have an herbalist. Even tailoring and Enchanting work well together because you get cloth off mobs normally, make green items, and use them to create level-appropriate enchanting mats. The people who have to buy mats are the people who are trying to mix and match professions to get special bonuses, and not using them in the way they were designed to be self-sufficient. Which is fine, but you then accept that you are relying on other people to do that farming and are at the mercy of their prices.
A new character, with no gold, shouldn't have to buy mats or greens because the game is set up that they don't have to.
Post by
lonewarrior
Simple economics..my time is mine to value not yours. If in the course of an hour I feel a stack of mats is worth a set amount of gold for me to farm..that is what I charge. That price varies with every individual.
You can pay it or you can level a toon and do it yourself. That's total free market economy.
No one owes anything to anyone else in this game.
If someone chooses to sell dirt cheap or at an exuberant price that's their business.
The AH is suppose to be an additional option for progression not the means of it.
The purpose of the game is to progress through its contents after all.
Those that have put in the time and earned enough gold can choose to buy their way through it..those that haven't, follow the more ardent path....working as designed.
The perks of guilds use to be supplementing members with mats and gear rather then being forced to contend with the AH economy.
But of course the general community wanted freedom from such things as guilds for progression.
The principles of LFD/LFR applies to the economy as well I would fathom.
As for CRZ...I'm all in favor of a universal AH. I'd go even farther and merge Ally/Horde markets as well.
Which is already a part of the game... yet for some bizarre reason a poorly utilized side note.
That's really is a good way to level out the economics due to popuation imbalances.
As for players complaining about CRZ effect on competition for mats on low pop servers...do they really think Blizz designed the game just for their discretion!
Just something you have to deal with now. I've notice on my hi-pop server that nodes are respawning quicker so perhaps Blizz is attempting some behind the scenes remedy.
Post by
civgw
Almost every profession has a sister profession designed to make it so you don't have to rely on the AH or other players for materials. Engineering is kind of the odd man out, but you can still be fairly effective as a miner at gathering your own mats. If you have a JC or a Blacksmith, you should be a miner, if you have a leatherworker you should have a skinner, and if you have an alchemist or inscriptionist you should have an herbalist. Even tailoring and Enchanting work well together because you get cloth off mobs normally, make green items, and use them to create level-appropriate enchanting mats. The people who have to buy mats are the people who are trying to mix and match professions to get special bonuses, and not using them in the way they were designed to be self-sufficient. Which is fine, but you then accept that you are relying on other people to do that farming and are at the mercy of their prices.
A new character, with no gold, shouldn't have to buy mats or greens because the game is set up that they don't have to.
It wasn't always this way.
In the start of Wrath, high AH prices were hellish for my first two alts on a new server. One did tailoring/ enchanting and the other mining/engineering. I never got enchanting maxed until I went back to that alt in Cata, but even so they only had a few hundred gold between them. I only buy from the AH as a last resort especially because of high prices.
Now in MOP, I can finally get the glyph-book-only glyphs, because I can make the glyphs through Inscription research. I can get the 70 glyphs (about 35 each for my horde and alliance inscriptors) that I am missing because of high AH prices.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
Almost every profession has a sister profession designed to make it so you don't have to rely on the AH or other players for materials. Engineering is kind of the odd man out, but you can still be fairly effective as a miner at gathering your own mats. If you have a JC or a Blacksmith, you should be a miner, if you have a leatherworker you should have a skinner, and if you have an alchemist or inscriptionist you should have an herbalist. Even tailoring and Enchanting work well together because you get cloth off mobs normally, make green items, and use them to create level-appropriate enchanting mats. The people who have to buy mats are the people who are trying to mix and match professions to get special bonuses, and not using them in the way they were designed to be self-sufficient. Which is fine, but you then accept that you are relying on other people to do that farming and are at the mercy of their prices.
A new character, with no gold, shouldn't have to buy mats or greens because the game is set up that they don't have to.
It wasn't always this way.
In the start of Wrath, high AH prices were hellish for my first two alts on a new server. One did tailoring/ enchanting and the other mining/engineering. I never got enchanting maxed until I went back to that alt in Cata, but even so they only had a few hundred gold between them. I only buy from the AH as a last resort especially because of high prices.
Now in MOP, I can finally get the glyph-book-only glyphs, because I can make the glyphs through Inscription research. I can get the 70 glyphs (about 35 each for my horde and alliance inscriptors) that I am missing because of high AH prices.
But glyph books are expensive because they're rare, not because of inflation. If every inscriptionist on the server needs them, and there are only 2-3 to be had at any given time, the price will be high regardless. That has to do with scarcity, and not general inflation.
I personally have leveled almost every profession (not all of them to max, but many of them, and many more to the 300-375 level because the alts were not high enough to keep learning), and very rarely have I had to go to the AH for anything.
But what you didn't quote was my most relevant point, which was that since everyone was both a direct seller and a direct buyer, that inflation is just a number. If your earning power goes up at the same rate as your buying power (as it does when with the AH) then you have really gained or lost nothing from inflation.
Here's an example:
Bob lived 150 years ago, and made $20 a week. His rent was $10 a week.
Bill lives in modern day mid-america. He makes $600/week. His rent is $300/week.
Now on the surface, someone might say that because of inflation, Bill has to pay a whole lot more in rent than Bob did, and he's much worse off. But if they work the same number of hours, and rent comes out to 50% of their income, they are technically both spending the same amount of time working for their rent, and in terms of buying power neither one is better or worse off. Monetary figures are just a number. That's why a US dollar could be worth 1000 Japanese Yen, and that doesn't mean that Japanese people are paying 1000 times more for items than we are. The numbers don't mean anything- it's the amount of work needed to get the money needed to buy item X that designates how hard it is to acquire X.
In wow, if copper ore sells for 4 gold a stack, and linen cloth sells for 2 gold a stack, then a low level character who needs linen but can mine ore needs to go spent the amount of time it takes to farm 20 pieces of ore to get 2 stacks of cloth. If, because of inflation, copper ore goes for 100 gold a stack, and linen cloth goes for 50 gold a stack, then that same low level character spends the exact same time to farm the same exact 20 pieces of ore to sell and buy 2 stacks of cloth. It takes no additional time for them to earn it, because their income from the ore has increased just like the cost of the cloth.
The only income that is not affected is vendor trash, coin dropped by mobs and quest rewards. But I don't know anyone whose primary source of income is questing, who has any large amount of money. And the reason for inflation of low level goods is that high level characters are willing to pay larger sums of money to low level characters for things because they make more money per hour from non-auctions, or they have an accumulation. Low level player technically have access to more gold specifically because of inflation.
Post by
TheReal
Seriously, this wouldn't solve server economies, since you'd have all of the servers in a Battlegroup suddenly competing with each other on the AH, which would completely jack up the prices of everything...
Creating cross-realm auction houses would not only introduce more sellers into the equation, but it would introduce more buyers as well. Don't ignore the buyers. They play as much role in the market price of items as the sellers do.
Similarly, anything posted at an excessively high price will be less likely to sell due to increased competition from other sellers, and people will therefore have more of an incentive to post at more normal prices.Or, alternatively, the prices just keep going down and down and down as the Undercutters you are so fond of continue to gouge each other, screwing over the economy on all realms, and making it so that anyone can get anything for a gold or less, no matter how 'rare' or 'epic' the piece is, leaving little to no reasons for gold sinks anywhere.
Again, completely ignoring the fact that introducing more sellers would also introduce more buyers.
Also, prices aren't more stable; I've played on several larger servers, and depending on the day of the week, you can find a full stack of copper going for 50 silver to 100 gold.
The "stable" price being referred to is the market value for an item: the price at which demand exactly meets up with supply. On low-pop realms, a very small percentage change in the activity of a supplier can have a large effect on the market value. Suppose 3 suppliers are selling all the Mithril Ore in equal amounts on a particular realm but one of those suppliers takes a week-long vacation. Supply dwindles and the market value for Mithril Ore increases for the week. Now consider a high-pop realm with 30 suppliers of Mithril Ore and one of those suppliers takes a week-long vacation. In such an instance, the market value of Mithril Ore barely shrugs. If that's not the very definition of price stability, then I don't know what is.
The simple fact in the World of Warcraft, there is no 'stable' line for costs on the AH, as there are dozens of different players who all think they know the cost of an item; expending that to a Battlegroup, or even worse, across the entire game, would just kill things, since those people would suddenly be coming into contact with others just like them, and they'd be fighting constantly to 'control' the system, which means prices most of us can't afford who don't seriously play the AH game.
With two or three suppliers, prices are high because supply is limited. With two or three HUNDRED suppliers, prices are low because demand is limited. It's simple economics. With so many suppliers in the system, "controlling the system" is far less likely without price fixing and collusion. Also, sellers don't control a system by raising prices; on the contrary, controlling a system starts with dropping prices in hopes your competition leaves the market because of reduced profits. Just how long do you think that would take in a small market as opposed to a very large one?
Hell, just look at low level greens since Transmog came out: On an average, a green plate piece seems to go from anywhere from 100 gold to upwards of 800 depending on the rarity of it; while that's good for the transmog hunters, that kills those who don't like to quest or for those who want to get a bit of a jump on the next leveling section: IE buying Cataclysm greens at level 77 and being unable to do so as they are 250 or more gold a pop.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Rare mogging pieces are expensive no matter what realm you're on.
I'd like to propose a theoretical trade. Would you swap me 10,000 low-pop server gold for 10,000 high-pop server gold? If not, why not?
Post by
civgw
But what you didn't quote was my most relevant point, which was that since everyone was both a direct seller and a direct buyer, that inflation is just a number. If your earning power goes up at the same rate as your buying power (as it does when with the AH) then you have really gained or lost nothing from inflation.
That assumes that you have equal interest in being a buyer and a seller.
If, like me, you are much more interested in buying than selling then high prices are very bad. I don't really have spare mats as they are needed to support my alts, partly so I don't have to buy them of the AH. I don't want to spend any more time than I have to in the AH.
When I sell something, which is not very often, then I sell at a price that I might pay if I were buying. So I sell the spare mop glyphs I've made for less than 100g rather than the hundreds of gold others list - after all I didn't really have to work hard to get them and I've already been rewarded by skilling up.
Post by
292411
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
But what you didn't quote was my most relevant point, which was that since everyone was both a direct seller and a direct buyer, that inflation is just a number. If your earning power goes up at the same rate as your buying power (as it does when with the AH) then you have really gained or lost nothing from inflation.
That assumes that you have equal interest in being a buyer and a seller.
If, like me, you are much more interested in buying than selling then high prices are very bad. I don't really have spare mats as they are needed to support my alts, partly so I don't have to buy them of the AH. I don't want to spend any more time than I have to in the AH.
When I sell something, which is not very often, then I sell at a price that I might pay if I were buying. So I sell the spare mop glyphs I've made for less than 100g rather than the hundreds of gold others list - after all I didn't really have to work hard to get them and I've already been rewarded by skilling up.
So you don't care how easy it is to earn money, because you don't want to earn money- you just want to spend it?
That's like saying that you don't care if there are plenty of jobs available, or that they all pay more than enough for someone to afford all of the things that they need and want, because you have no interest in working, and so everything should be priced at a level that will allow people who don't want to work to still afford it. You want Wowfare.
There is a difference between saying that the prices are so high that no one can afford them, and the prices are so high that no one lazy can afford them. You are arguing the second as though it's a valid point. The items on the AH represent other people's time spent. If you don't like how they value their time, then go spend your own. If you find your own time too valuable to waste gathering mats or making gold, what makes you think that everyone else in the game should place so much less value on their time than you do on yours, and price items that take time to acquire for amounts of money that take no time to acquire?
Technically, if you refuse to spend the time yourself to gather items to sell for the current AH prices, that means that YOU don't think that the reward is high enough for it to be worth it. That would mean that you would set the price higher on your own time that most people on the AH currently do. So you are complaining essentially that your time is more valuable that the gold it would generate, and so other people should stop charging that amount of gold for their time to accommodate you. Do you not see the hypocrisy in this?
Post by
292411
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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