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10.2.6
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Improved cross-faction interaction
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Post by
BlackMonarch
Ever since I started playing, I noticed that something was very, very amiss with this game. Namely, it was a
massively multiplayer online
game, but I literally could not interact at all with half of the players (I don't do Arenas/Battlegrounds and didn't know about the neutral AH for a very long time). There are three main components of this that I'd like to discuss separately:
1) We should be able to learn each other's languages
This one should go without saying. Lore-wise, it makes perfect sense:
Australian
Gutterspeak is just degenerate
English
Common, right? How about the two different kinds of Elves? I know
Dutch
Thalassian and
German
Darnassian aren't the same, but it should be ridiculously easy for a speaker of one to learn the other.
It makes sense in-game as well, but slightly less obviously. Newbie Blood Elves pretty quickly find themselves speaking to a Dwarf who, despite being a Dwarf and therefore a member of the Alliance, is apparently fluent in Thalassian. When Forsaken players eavesdrop on a conversation between Darius Crowley and Ivar Bloodfang, they can understand every word of it, even though it's presumably in Gilnean. Visitors to the Plaguelands may remember Fiona's caravan, the Cenarion Circle, the Argents, etc., which included races of both factions able to talk to each other. This is to say nothing of the many thousands of enemy-faction mooks whose speech a player can understand perfectly.
And as the 5.0.4 patch is so fond of reminding us, yes, those languages that you speak ARE, in fact, in-game skills. So why not make them learnable, just like riding? It could be a great gold-sink: 100,000 gold for horde players to learn Common or Alliance players to learn Orcish. Heck, I'd be willing to pay just so my Forsaken characters could understand all that Thalassian crap that the Blood Elves keep spouting. Or maybe you'd have to do an elaborate quest chain or something. Speaking of which...
2) Race should not determine faction
Just like the other suggestion, this makes sense for both lore and in-game reasons. Undead players are told right out of the grave that they don't have to join the Forsaken or follow Sylvanas, and at one point, you'll even come across an undead fellow who left the Forsaken to join the Argents. The Darkspear Trolls are considering leaving the Horde wholesale. Goblins have always been chaotic neutral with their loyalty for sale to the highest bidder. Humans are full of splinter groups like the Scarlet Crusade who just do their own thing, with or without Alliance permission.
Burning Crusade gave players the option to not just pledge loyalty to either the Aldor or Scryers , but switch between the two if they were willing to grind enough reputation. Kung Fu Pandas will be allowed to choose whether they want to join the Horde or Alliance. Why not fuse the two mechanics? Why not allow players to switch between Horde and Alliance by grinding some daily quest or another? Just because I'm a zombie doesn't mean I support the use of chemical and biological weapons against civilian targets, and just because I want to play for blue team doesn't mean I want to give up cannibalism and have a pulse again. This approach would be vastly preferable to Blizzard's current paid faction change that comes bundled with an involuntary race change and a swapping of various items (Gloves of Unmitigated Badassery FTW).
And they'd
still
have to bother to learn the language :D
3) Cross-faction mailing should not be limited to heirlooms
Right now, my Forsaken protection warrior can send a
Burnished Helm of Might
,
Burnished Pauldrons of Might
,
Ripped Sandstorm Cloak
,
Burnished Breastplate of Might
,
Bloodsoaked Skullforge Reaver
, and two
Swift Hands of Justice
to my Human protection paladin, which seems like an awfully goddamn huge favor for a Horde member to do for the Alliance scum... but I'm NOT allowed to send low-level gray garbage like
Loose Chain Vest
and
Feeble Sword
, or even a single copper cent? Like... what the hell, man?
Seriously?
...
Anyway... I'd like to hear all of your thoughts on this.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
I actually do wish they'd have some kind of choice to turn traitor on your home faction and join the other side, in game as a rep grind and quest series, without changing race. Part of that might just be that it would force them to let me have credit for horde only mounts and pets on my ally characters- lol. I think story wise it would fit, I would like the option to pick some of the races I like on the other side without having to stick with a faction I dislike, and it would make for a good storyline. I have seen it done in other games, and it can work.
Post by
Adamsm
For the language; long ago in Vanilla time, Forsaken could speak to the Alliance players....and did so by trolling, insulting, bashing and just plain being @#$%^&*s to them, and vice versa.
For the idea of race not mattering to faction....yeah don't see that happening ever, since too many of the races hate the other ones with a massive burning passion.
As for the cross faction mail; I've never noticed that as a problem.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
For the language; long ago in Vanilla time, Forsaken could speak to the Alliance players....and did so by trolling, insulting, bashing and just plain being @#$%^&*s to them, and vice versa.
For the idea of race not mattering to faction....yeah don't see that happening ever, since too many of the races hate the other ones with a massive burning passion.
As for the cross faction mail; I've never noticed that as a problem.
Adams- There's a difference between two countries being at war, and every single person of said nationality hating every other person of said nationality. It's much more realistic to think that some mercenaries would have no particular loyalty other than coin, that some newly made forsaken would refuse to take up arms against friends and family, that some druids witnessing the wholesale destruction of Ashenvale by the Horde would pick their religious values over their political affiliation, etc.
Many other organizations have members from both sides of the great divide- pirates, the various argent and cenarion factions, scryers and aldor, etc. There's plenty of precedent in lore for the races to be able to work together on an individual basis.
Mechanically it may not be feasible, and I'd accept that. But don't argue that it doesn't make sense that in a war there would be turncoats. There are always turncoats.
Post by
Adamsm
Adams- There's a difference between two countries being at war, and every single person of said nationality hating every other person of said nationality. It's much more realistic to think that some mercenaries would have no particular loyalty other than coin, that some newly made forsaken would refuse to take up arms against friends and family, that some druids witnessing the wholesale destruction of Ashenvale by the Horde would pick their religious values over their political affiliation, etc.
Many other organizations have members from both sides of the great divide- pirates, the various argent and cenarion factions, scryers and aldor, etc. There's plenty of precedent in lore for the races to be able to work together on an individual basis.
Mechanically it may not be feasible, and I'd accept that. But don't argue that it doesn't make sense that in a war there would be turncoats. There are always turncoats.
True...but if an Orc attempted to join the Alliance or a Human join the Horde, Varian and Garrosh would probably slay them on the spot as soon as they met them.
And some races do hate others on sight: Worgens would never work side by side with the Forsaken after what they did to Gilneas. The Night Elves want the Orcs gone from their lands. Even though Baine counts both Jaina and Anduin as close friends, he still is more then willing to get rid of any humans he finds in his lands.
Honestly, the only races who would accept others are Night Elves and Tauren, Gnomes and Goblins(they have a very volatile relationship true but they do respect each others scientific discoveries); the other races have too much baggage in how they feel about each other to ever accept 'traitors'.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
I think it takes just a big of a leap of faith to accept a SCOURGE into the horde or the alliance as someone of one of the opposite factions, if not more.
What about Fiona's Caravan- that's a hodge podge of a number of races, including a little undead child. And if you take into consideration that the Alliance and the Horde formally work with the Cenarion druids and the Argent Crusade, then it would be patently false that the leadership would cut down any members of those races they saw...because they're already working with them.
Post by
Adamsm
I think it takes just a big of a leap of faith to accept a SCOURGE into the horde or the alliance as someone of one of the opposite factions, if not more. Of course, said Scourge have a note from the Jesus of Warcraft who get them in heh.
What about Fiona's Caravan- that's a hodge podge of a number of races, including a little undead child.I know there are exceptions heh; but all of the members of the Caravan are neutrals as opposed to being connected to one of the main factions.
And if you take into consideration that the Alliance and the Horde formally work with the Cenarion druids and the Argent Crusade, then it would be patently false that the leadership would cut down any members of those races they saw...because they're already working with them.
Right: The enemy of my enemy is my friend...but there are also faction members who abandon their factions and join up with the Neutrals; you see that from two different Forsaken after all. After all, even when the Alliance and Horde work with the neutrals, they are right back to warring with each other after the big bad is down.
Post by
BlackMonarch
For the language; long ago in Vanilla time, Forsaken could speak to the Alliance players....and did so by trolling, insulting, bashing and just plain being @#$%^&*s to them, and vice versa
/ignore
Problem solved.
Post by
Adamsm
For the language; long ago in Vanilla time, Forsaken could speak to the Alliance players....and did so by trolling, insulting, bashing and just plain being @#$%^&*s to them, and vice versa
/ignore
Problem solved.
So you'll ignore an entire battle ground as both groups do nothing but insult the other in says, yells and the rest eh?
Post by
ElhonnaDS
@Adams- I think you might be missing the point.
Me: "I'd like the option to be a member of a certian race, but not have to conform to the faction their people come from."
You: "But that doesn't fit the lore."
Me: "Yes it does. Here's a bunch of examples of people of all of these races who aren't members of their home faction, and work with members of other races."
You: "But they all left their faction."
Me: "Right- that's what I want to be able to do."
You: "But the leaders would kill members of enemy factions on sight."
Me: "Yes, but not members of those races who have left those factions. Examples."
You: "But they left those factions."
Me: "Yes I know. That's kind of the point I'm making. I want to leave the faction."
Darkmoon faire is really just a group of civilians of various races, and they get a free pass in all lands regardless of the various species, because they're not members of those factions. In that case it's not a strategic alliance- they don't need them to defeat some world evil. They're just not members of the Horde or Alliance, and so they are allowed in the lands of both to sell balloons and run carnival games.
Post by
Adamsm
Yeah but the thing is, the idea of traitor to the factions doesn't work well in the Warcraft universe; now if you were leaving it to join a neutral that's understandable.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
Plenty of people turn traitor on their own people without joining the other warring faction. How many pirates, bandits, crazed trappers, Twilight's hammer etc. do you run into of your own species who'd kill you in a second. That's pretty traitorous. They just didn't join the Horde or Alliance.
I think that it's more unrealistic to say no Blood Elf ever regretted the decision they made and wanted to rejoin the high elves and the alliance, that no Forsaken ever tried to continue and protect their loved ones after they died, that no human ever thought the price was right for them to work for the Goblins instead and no Warlock found the alliance too restrictive for their personal tastes.
Post by
hymer
My thoughts, briefly:
1: I'm afraid it would lead to a lot of unconstructive raising of tempers and very little good. I like the idea, languages should be learnable, I'm just worried cross-faction communication simply isn't worth the candle.
2: I'm kinda conflicted.
A: Absolutely. I'd love to be able to mix and match. Any lore that prohibits this ought to be changed.
B: No way. I don't want any snooty nightelves in my Horde, or any stinking Forsaken in my Alliance.
3: That point is too minor for me to care. I don't see heirloom-mailing as something that happens story-wise. It's just game-technical.
Post by
Adamsm
I know it can be there, but the 'time' is too recent for all of the hurts to just go away. And we see how both factions feel about traitors.
Though in the case of the Warlocks, except for the Forsaken, races on both sides don't trust them very much; saw that in Tides of Wars when they mentioned the Warlocks as part of the Alliance Naval fleet as being a necessary evil.
Post by
skumbananer
It would be cool with a few (more?) traitor faction swapping npcs though even if players can´t (and shouldnt?) do it.
Like a delusional human thinking he is a troll (Like Budd in Grizzly Hills) in a troll-themed quest hub for horde players, or perhaps a small biracial goblin/human fishing village in Horde territory allied to the Horde, a gnome outcast in Undercity (wasnt there one of those?). maybe a traitor-orc guard npc in a alliance quest hub, or a small band of Tauren traitors allied with the alliance you should kill during a quest.
Post by
Adamsm
It was a Leper Gnome in the Undercity.
Post by
678294
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Murrdurr
I actually like the idea of being able to learn languages. Back when I played Everquest, you could learn languages by having someone who was maxed in a certain language sit there and just talk to you in group chat, eventually you would master it. There were some languages really difficult to learn iirc.
Post by
879113
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
BlackMonarch
Language issue: How many keyboard warriors would shell out tens of thousands of gold, or spend several hours grinding their language skills, just for the privilege of talking trash to the other faction?
Turncoat issue: There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that race alone would get you killed on sight, and plenty to believe the contrary. If I remember correctly, not all goblins are members of the Bilgewater Cartel and not all Trolls are members of the Darkspear tribe. Dwarven leadership is also hardly solid. The two different varieties of Elf are the same species, and I'm sure that a great many humans would be able to pass for recently deceased and vice versa. Hell, Lady Sylvanas herself could probably dress up as a Night Elf and walk right into Stormwind without anybody suspecting a damn thing.
Both options are totally reasonable, so long as they are hard roads to travel.
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