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10.2.5
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A major BUFF to mobs is necessary.
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Post by
Dilbo
They did that with the new world; Outland and Northrend weren't affected by the Cataclysm, and they had more important things to work on then starting another update.
What is more important than maintaining a sense of continuity in the game? Better yet, why are you making excuses for Blizzard failing to deliver a complete product rather than an outdated patchwork of disjointed questlines?
Um wow...you do realize that because of the 1-60 revamp, they were working on Cata for almost two years right? Pretty much as soon as Wrath was launched, they were already working on that; phasing was brand new at the start of Wrath, so they couldn't have 'just flipped a switch', since there was nothing to flip. They had to recode all of Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms to do the update.
Read more carefully. There was no switch to flip which is why they should have developed this as part of the expansion. I don't really care much for the technical aspects of the game and I doubt you or I understand the underlying complexities - but let's just agree that the amount of money Blizzard reaps from this game alone makes this possible and feasible - just not as profitable as leaving the old content stale.
The thing is, end game is bad.
Opinion.
Hundreds of thousands of departing subscribers seem to share this opinion. Sitting around in queues or struggling to organize a group of 25 people is hardly anything to look forward to. Oh yeah, you can do daily quests. Those sure are lots of fun.
Again; opinion. I loved Hyjal, Deepholme, Twilight Highlands and the new dungeons, and I enjoyed the revamp to both SFK and Deadmines. I liked the challenge of the Tier 11 raids. I had fun doing the things for the Firelands and the Molten Front.
Do you think that calling my statement opinion makes it less true? LOL Not really. The content delivery for the cata patch was not up to par with a game that is charging its customers $15 per month per account. Many households have more than one account since it is not possible to share an account with others.
Your response is not making a value proposition and stating that you like it does not add any validity to your case.
Patch 4.3 with Raid Finder, Fall of Deathwing and the HoT's were enjoyable to me...they get repetitive quickly don't get me wrong, but they still weren't as bad as the BC era things when it came to running things.
See, now you're getting what I'm saying. REPETITIVE. WoW should be providing VARIETY on a regular basis. Not just giving you a patch or two and letting it rot for years.
No, it's really not that much like Vanilla. But if you are going to say that, then I guess Wrath was recycled too, what with Naxx and Ony.
Cata was trying to tap a nostalgia vein with the people who say things like "Remember in vanilla when...." followed by some "memory" of the game they have being better than it is in its current state.
If Blizzard is going to recycle old content then it should be included as a free update as a patch. New content is the only thing that justifies being sold as an expansion set. Cata was not worth as an expansion since it is largely a revision of the original game.
Why? I mean really, why does there need to be new content every month, that just negates the previous stuff. I like how WoW does things; the content patches change what is going on, and does improve the game.
Why? TO KEEP IT FRESH. Are you really going to ask these dense-minded questions? Out with the old, in with the new. What is your intent to play an MMO. You think it "ends"? It is an open-ended game and therefore should have a steady flow of fresh, new content, items and locations to keep the player base engaged.
It's called suspension of disbelief, and it's something you get whenever you play older games that have sequels.
Except that WoW is ONE game. The outlands are still "part of" the WoW, they are not a separate game. Please do produces excuses for Blizzard's laziness in lieu of a sound rebuttal for a point I've made.
I still find the game interesting, and I'm gonna find it a lot more interesting in a month and couple weeks when Mists comes out. I leveled a Monk on Beta, went from 1-90 and had a blast; I enjoyed learning the class, reporting broken quests, and seeing what I could do as a Brewmaster which really, makes DK tanks look like nothing.
That puts you in a small minority...and after you experienced the "new" expac on beta it pretty much acts as a spoiler to when the final version is released. You've already been there, done that.
Although I find that the process of questing tends to be more fun since you're always moving into new areas as you level up, so it feels like your progressing...compared to the end level where most of your time is spent sitting around in queues for BGs, dungeons, raids or arena.
There is still a metric crap ton of things in that game that are interesting
You haven't cited something in the game that is so interesting that it gives Blizzard a free pass on more frequent (monthly) content updates for both pve and pvp enthusiasts.
Post by
Dilbo
That's what you originally said. You said that if people do not like these elements should not be playing a game like WoW. I severely disagree. Someone who loves PvP-cap fights doesn't have to particularly enjoy any of that. He cannot skip it, so you suggest he should not play this game. I don't see how that's exagerating anything, I'm quoting exactly what is written. If anything, your words were exaggerated. Though, judging from your other replies, you meant what you said.
I know what I said and you repeating it doesn't contribute anything to the topic. Disagree all you want, but the leveling grind is still part of the game and has been since its inception. You are attempting to misconstrue my statement by taking it out of context.
And "Fixing an issue" IS "Tailoring a game to perfection". I don't see how that's even an issue, you didn't oppose my point, you rephrased it.
Uhhh...no. Fixing and issue is fixing an issue. Tailoring a game to perfection means making changes that may or may not have been part of the original game design.
Players' damage output was buffed substantially. Quest mobs damage and HP was not updated in kind. Obviously intentional on blizzard's part, but it is a decision they should revisit.
It does not directly. It has to do with your previous statement that people who do not enjoy questing shouldn't be playing this game, which I refused.
Disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing but not providing some logical argument as to why, other than "I refuse". Sorry but any newcomer to this game will spend a large portion of their time completing quests so if they dislike this type of game they will not enjoy WoW and hence should not be playing the game.
Why should they not be playing a game they most likely will not enjoy? Because there are games they can play that they will enjoy...but perhaps there are some people who enjoy doing things they do not enjoy...
Why? Can't I play a game that is
flawed
? Can't I have my own "Oh god, why is it like this and not like that" oppinions on a game? Should I stop playing WoW because, for example, I believe it is stupid that tigers are able to parry attacks? Of course I can still play a game I don't like at some levels and enjoy it. WoW is massive, and enjoying part of it is reason enough - or not - to play. It's up to each of us to make that decision.
So you're presenting a potential "annoyance" in animals parrying attacks as being a reason critical enough for someone to drop the game altogether? No, not really a good example. There are always going to be flaws in any game, but if the fundamental paradigm of the game is something you do not find enjoyable - questing - then why spend time playing it at all when you could be doing something you enjoy?
I don't really see why you're trying to make a big speech out of this - because me saying SHOULD NOT does not preclude anyone from playing the game in spite of anything I said.
Why is his opinion less valid than yours? Endgame PvE is a metagame, PvP is another, Levelling is another. Just because levelling happens to be a requirement, it doesn't entitle you to state that if you don't like it, the game should be off-limits. That's up to me, or any other player, to decide if it's worth it to go through levels to meet endgame and experience the new metagame that comes with it. You cannot just state who wants what, who's entitled to do what and expect people to go along with it.
These are all facets of the same game...and the leveling process continues once you reach the max character level because you then shift your focus on item level. Unfortunately, the end game experience is a pure grind whereas the character leveling process offers a bit more variety.
Your assessment that I believe his opinion is "less valid" is entirely off base. His comment is simply off the mark. There are a lot of people who dislike the leveling process but endure it so they can sit in raid finder queues to do the same raid over and over again - fine, do that, but that is no justification for dumbing down the character leveling aspect of the game.
If they're content to leave the leveling process as it is now, a mindless 1-button mash fest, why stop there? Why not make raids solo-able? Why maintain a requirement that dungeons NEED to be performed as a group of players...how about I do the dungeon solo and the other 4 roles are fulfilled by NPCs? Same for raids...I solo a boss, but the other 24 members of the raid are NPCs.
This is called a slippery slope...and if you agree that the current mobs are OK while being far too weak to pose any threat to players of the same level, even if the mob is a few levels above them, that the rest of the game should be "adjusted" in kind to maintain that whole solo action capability, group optional.
I happen to agree that I'd personally like some extra difficulty... because I'm biased. I'm levelling a paladin, one of the favored classes to solo. I levelled my priest with a friend, and the constant drinking (Since I'm a DoT class and don't get Mind Spike until ABUSIVELLY LATE) and flow is actually frustrating when I'm alone.
Leveling a priest was not particularly difficult, although I did level a warrior in vanilla and they along with rogues were considered to be very solo-unfriendly. But none of the current 1-60 mobs are that strong that you need to struggle to beat one or even two at a time. Shadow doesn't really become useful until you get shadowform; prior to that it is better to level as disc.
Mana refills itself quite fast at low levels when you are out of combat rending drinking unnecessary for the majority of the time, and once you get SW:Death you can glyph it to restore your mana if you use it and fail to kill the target.
The monsters are not hard, but I'm undergeared and blow through my mana with ridiculous ease. My mana talents are late, my mana spells are late, it is a mess. Now, tell me, which would be the balancing factor? Tailor monsters to the most effective class levelling, and leave others in the dust? Tailor them to the worst levelling class, and leave top-classes still blowing through them?
It really isn't as easy as increasing health pools.
Smite kills most mobs in 1-2 casts if you're at least putting on quest greens. If you're blowing your mana pool on just one mob of the same level as a priest, it's not a problem with the game it's a problem with the player.
The point is that enemies are generally too weak and do too little damage. I have felt this to be true on every class I've tried, including priest, rogue, lock and warrior. Ever since the changes brought by cata, buffing player damage across the board, I have loathed the fact that monsters were not adjusted as well to provide more of a challenge. That is all.
Post by
Dilbo
And they do that; as you progress along, you go through the continuity: The issue is that Warcraft is so massive at this point, to get everything, you need to read all of the supplementary information that goes with it, and see the things that aren't acted out in the game.
It's not continuity if I get to outlands and they're still preparing to take on the legion as if it hasn't already happened...same with northrend, a very nice continent with some of the best music and visuals in the game, but the lich king has been defeated so why are all the quests talking like he's still there.
For people who want to experience old content - they should put that stuff at the caverns of time. It's a plot device that works for that sort of thing...but the current in-game content should reflect what has transpired in the game world.
Again: There is an Outland revamp in the works, and more then likely we'll see it next expansion, or whichever expansion ends up going against the Legion again...since you know, that's always been what Draenor was about. As for the technical portion: I just cite the fact that the Azeroth revamp working started as soon as Wrath was launched, so there is the fact that it is a lot of work to do.
A lot of work no doubt, but Blizzard is not short on resources so it's irrelevant to mention that. Doing the additional work would reduce profits, not make the game unprofitable.
Hate to tell you this...but I enjoy Dailies, and I'm looking forward to MoP when the Daily cap goes bye bye and I can do dailies to my hearts content. Also, I never just 'sit around in a queue'; if I'm in LFD or LFR, I'm out in the world farming, exploring, rep grinding, pet hunting, tabard hunting what have you. I'm rarely just sitting in a city, since there is a lot of crap to do in the world of Azeroth.
Playing pokemon or dora the explorer is not why I want to play WoW. I took the time to level and gear a character, and what I enjoy is random world pvp encounters and running into unusual situations in the game world. These "diversions" from the main game are there instead legitimate content. Why did they add the firelands quests, but did not add a firelands BG?
My realm is highly populated and USED TO be known for lively world pvp, but that's all but dead now. There hasn't been an all-out horde raid on SW or any of the alliance cities since cata, and the alliance could care less about attacking horde cities.
According to people, Warcraft hasn't been up to par for delivering content since Vanilla. And honestly...yeah it does: You have your opinion of the Cata content, I have my opinion on it, Joe Bob in Montana has his opinion, little Suzy in England has hers...everyone has one, and really, no ones is completely right, not even my own.
It was not until cata that WoW had to develop a business model for "minimizing the amount of abandoned subscribers". TBC was OK but Wrath was probably the best expac to date simply because it added so much NEW stuff.
Not really; Cata introduced a lot of new things, but because Blizzard did what people called for all through out Wrath, which was to make things 'harder' again, well...then you hit the other half of the wall; those you can't appease no matter what. Look up the information on how many guilds actually finished T11; you'll see some surprising numbers, since most of the player base was expecting more of things like ICC and the Trial....and they ended up with things like the original BC raids and Vanilla.
Sorry but I'm not big on pve and I find endgame pve to be exceptionally boring and dull...but I do know that toward the end of Wrath they made heroics and dungeons ridiculously easy. Then they made the heroics in cata too hard, rather than striking a balance somewhere in the middle.
BTW many of the threads that have expressed dissatisfaction with Cata get deleted and the users who start them get banned on the official WoW forums. Tells you something about the company if they have to silence their critics...just saying.
Yeah, except for all the new things after level 85 of course....
There really wasn't much "new" in cata except for a few questing zones that become obsolete once you ding 85.
Keep your tone polite please; there isn't any need to insult people if you want a civil discussion.
If you're reading that as an insult you're being overly sensitive. Calm down.
I know an MMO doesn't end till the company says it does...but at the same time, there isn't a reason to just suddenly wiping things out and making new things: Say they did revamp Outlands right now; do you really expect the Player base to 'care' that much?
Blizzard has been manipulating its player base to do things that they would really rather not do. I don't think they should be giving into every whiners' plea, but they should not believe that they are the ones who make WoW what it is. It's nothing without its player base.
I don't consider that rebuttal to be sound, but that's me. I won't 'produce' anything since you have your opinion and I have mine; neither one of us is going to change the others minds here.
So you are disagreeing that WoW is in fact one game and is a series of "minigames" that are stitched together and should each be considered their own little microcosm?
Horse turds: I know a lot of people who were on Beta who are still excited as hell for MoP. I also haven't been back on Beta since they reopened Jade Forest and made more tweaks to the zones, so I'll be just fine experiencing the content as I prepare myself for what I'm going to do with my Monk at max level.
I'm planning to play MoP for a bit. I haven't even looked at the intro video and don't plan to. That's just personal preference.
There's that sentence again: Why do you just sit around? There's so much stuff to do in Azeroth, I don't get why people park their asses in cities and then complain about it. Get off your duff and do things.
There is not as much to do in azeroth once you are level 85 that is not dull and boring grinding. Most zones are empty, only NPCs there and no players.
Okay, off the top of my head for myself: Achievement hunting, Loremaster questing, Pet hunting on my hunters, mini-pet hunting on a wide variety of toons, mount hunting, soloing challenges of old content, timed runs of old content, farming for pleasure to get that new nifty vanity item I want and transmog hunting. Also, if Blizzard did do monthly updates of things, you'd never be able to get anything anyways; for that month they'd be on the new things then off to the next...and really, that's the ADD crowd if you ask me, and would steadily kill WoW and turn it into a Facebook game.
None of these things appeal to me because all of these could be provided by a free-to-play flash game on facebook. These things are simply there to distract the playerbase from the fact that blizzard is not providing any new content until MoP and then you will have to pay extra for it, as if the monthly fee doesn't entitle you to it already.
Post by
yukonjack
Buffing quest mobs is likely only going to result in more players leaving the game, bad idea and I hope they don't do it.
My guess is if Blizz offered for a fee of real money the opportunity to make a max level character it would be their best selling service.
I personally enjoy questing and if I find myself killing mobs to fast I pull more of them at once, or fight naked depending on my mood.
Post by
Adamsm
None of these things appeal to meWell then, I guess we have nothing further to say. Even if they did up the quest mobs, I doubt you'd be happy anyways.
But hey, who knows, maybe MoP will be the final nail in the coffin of Blizzard getting money from you. Till then, I'm gonna enjoy my play time in the wide world of Azeroth, same as I have for the last 6 years.
Que Sera.
Post by
161859
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
lonewarrior
Then the expansion passes and noone comes back to the zone, so random leveling person need to ask in guild channel if anyone can come and help with the few group quests remaining (Nagrand before nerfs).
Oh god, absolute truth. This sort of thing didn't start at Nagrand either, it started in the levelling areas. When all the mobs were hostile, if you were a lone human trying to start fresh in Elwynn, getting out of Northshire Abbey could take you a good while because the area crawled with Defias who you had to get past for 2 separate quests, so you had to clear a path through them 4 times. The last quest target had 2 guards and none of them were pushovers.
Then you faced a Elwynn Forest full of bears, wolves, kobolds, Defias and murlocs, and the cherry on the cake of pain was trying to first get to and then solo Hogger. If you were not extremely careful and prudent (and be constantly vigilant) he would surprise you from behind a tree and leave your quivering corpse on the ground in seconds. (Edit: This bit was so notoriously painful, Hogger was made a boss in the new Stockades AND if you check the Statistics page of your Achievements panel and open up 'Character', then 'Deaths', deaths to Hogger is it's own stat.)
If you could find someone to help you were ok, but Elwynn was mostly a slow and painful solo endeavour.
Funny...I found this to be the charm of the game when I first started :)
It was the original..."watch where you go" introduction into the game.
Something sorely missing at times as I see players wander off in the wrong direction in dungeon ..causing mob aggro.
As for hogger...he was my first introduction with interacting with my server community.
I remember standing there the first time he wiped the floor with me...not knowing what an elite was at that time :P and have a total stranger come along an ask me if I needed help to kill him.
It was the first of many kind acts I would receive and because of that act, give as well in this game.
Post by
Eccentrica
Then the expansion passes and noone comes back to the zone, so random leveling person need to ask in guild channel if anyone can come and help with the few group quests remaining (Nagrand before nerfs).
Oh god, absolute truth. This sort of thing didn't start at Nagrand either, it started in the levelling areas. When all the mobs were hostile, if you were a lone human trying to start fresh in Elwynn, getting out of Northshire Abbey could take you a good while because the area crawled with Defias who you had to get past for 2 separate quests, so you had to clear a path through them 4 times. The last quest target had 2 guards and none of them were pushovers.
Then you faced a Elwynn Forest full of bears, wolves, kobolds, Defias and murlocs, and the cherry on the cake of pain was trying to first get to and then solo Hogger. If you were not extremely careful and prudent (and be constantly vigilant) he would surprise you from behind a tree and leave your quivering corpse on the ground in seconds. (Edit: This bit was so notoriously painful, Hogger was made a boss in the new Stockades AND if you check the Statistics page of your Achievements panel and open up 'Character', then 'Deaths', deaths to Hogger is it's own stat.)
If you could find someone to help you were ok, but Elwynn was mostly a slow and painful solo endeavour.
Funny...I found this to be the charm of the game when I first started :)
It was the original..."watch where you go" introduction into the game.
Something sorely missing at times as I see players wander off in the wrong direction in dungeon ..causing mob aggro.
As for hogger...he was my first introduction with interacting with my server community.
I remember standing there the first time he wiped the floor with me...not knowing what an elite was at that time :P and have a total stranger come along an ask me if I needed help to kill him.
It was the first of many kind acts I would receive and because of that act, give as well in this game.
Yes dear, but my point really was that after a certain point, there was simply no-one kicking around in Elwynn anymore, or in Stormwind for that matter. The chances of anyone carting their arse back from Dal to help kill Hogger were miniscule.
During the start of Wrath, before LF Guild, before the massive nerfs to the starting areas, cranking up a new toon was a long slow and painful experience.
I was RaFd in during BC so I had a helping hand getting started in the game. Someone picking the game box up from the store and starting solo was severly gimped. Who knows how many people (who might still be members of the community otherwise), couldn't get past the starting gate and quit.
There is diffculty for the sake of challenge, and then is difficulty for the sake of difficulty. We used to have lots and lots of the latter.
Post by
cloudp
Smite kills most mobs in 1-2 casts if you're at least putting on quest greens. If you're blowing your mana pool on just one mob of the same level as a priest, it's not a problem with the game it's a problem with the player.
The point is that enemies are generally too weak and do too little damage. I have felt this to be true on every class I've tried, including priest, rogue, lock and warrior. Ever since the changes brought by cata, buffing player damage across the board, I have loathed the fact that monsters were not adjusted as well to provide more of a challenge. That is all.
I never said I blew through my mana in one mob. And smite doesn't two-shot mobs if you're level 30+ - maybe with heirlooms, but on quest greens, it really does not. Much less on Outlands, where Discipline levelling starts failing, but shadow still doesn't quite have the mana tools it should.
And this is still assuming you do not challenge yourself. I regularly pulled 4-5packs, but while my paladin could get out of a pack of 5 mobs full health, my priest surelly could not at some levels. Well, maybe full health, but entirelly depleted on mana. If you're limiting yourself to single pulls, you're not taking the potential of your skillset to it's fullest, and class discrepancies are more noticeable when pushed to the limit. You've just heard Adam stating his limit was 30 mobs as a Blood DK. Try doing 30 mobs your level on your priest - who happens to have only 1 AoE skill with a low coeficient and high mana cost,
at level 62
.
That's what you originally said. You said that if people do not like these elements should not be playing a game like WoW. I severely disagree. Someone who loves PvP-cap fights doesn't have to particularly enjoy any of that. He cannot skip it, so you suggest he should not play this game. I don't see how that's exagerating anything, I'm quoting exactly what is written. If anything, your words were exaggerated. Though, judging from your other replies, you meant what you said.
I know what I said and you repeating it doesn't contribute anything to the topic. Disagree all you want, but the leveling grind is still part of the game and has been since its inception. You are attempting to misconstrue my statement by taking it out of context.
Oh, but not at all. You see, you claimed it as a maximum. I'm saying that there are several people who wouldn't fit that maximum, refuting your ideal that people should or should not be playing. Context is that you were on about someone wanting to blow through content to get to 85 asap. His very reply is proof enough that it makes no sense to make such big claims for everyone's sake. People who hate questing can PvP or RDF all the way to 85 - save for the first 10 levels or 15 levels, which you get through in an hour's worth of playing. One who PvPs all the way to 85 doesn't have to do a single quest. So, even your "unskippable" argument is not true.
I don't get why you're so defensive about this. You made unquestionable "It is as I say" claims for everyone, and people who don't agree are refusing them. Well, just say that "most" or "some" will be discouraged by the questing experience and not reach level cap to enjoy the rest. Possible. Don't come in and state everyone is like this. It's a false assumption and it lost all validity in Cataclysm's LFD/BG Experience, even if before it was already a naive assumption that no one would quest his way to level cap just to enjoy endgame without even caring or liking to quest.
And "Fixing an issue" IS "Tailoring a game to perfection". I don't see how that's even an issue, you didn't oppose my point, you rephrased it.
Uhhh...no. Fixing and issue is fixing an issue. Tailoring a game to perfection means making changes that may or may not have been part of the original game design.
And this semantic discussion is not really the point, but I'll address it anyway. If a game is essentially perfect, but one of it's soundtracks has a glitch and skips a second in an awkward way, the game company fixes it. What was this? Tailoring the game to perfection or fixing an issue? I think you'll find it was both. The game wasn't perfect because of that flaw, and became perfect after that was sorted, thus, got tailored to perfection. It was also fixing an issue.
I'll perhaps hand it that fixing issue and tailoring the game to perfection aren't synonims, but tailoring the game to perfection most certainly includes "fixing issues" of any kind. Which is to say, fixing issues is tailoring the game to perfection, but the reciprocal is not true.
Why? Can't I play a game that is
flawed
? Can't I have my own "Oh god, why is it like this and not like that" oppinions on a game? Should I stop playing WoW because, for example, I believe it is stupid that tigers are able to parry attacks? Of course I can still play a game I don't like at some levels and enjoy it. WoW is massive, and enjoying part of it is reason enough - or not - to play. It's up to each of us to make that decision.
So you're presenting a potential "annoyance" in animals parrying attacks as being a reason critical enough for someone to drop the game altogether? No, not really a good example. There are always going to be flaws in any game, but if the fundamental paradigm of the game is something you do not find enjoyable - questing - then why spend time playing it at all when you could be doing something you enjoy?
I don't really see why you're trying to make a big speech out of this - because me saying SHOULD NOT does not preclude anyone from playing the game in spite of anything I said.
It was an example, mostly because massive examples were pointed before. OK, I'll repeat it. Player X loves PvP but hates PvE. It so happens that several pieces of BiS gear for his PvP set require PvE. Should X quit the game?
And you're the one naming the fundamental paradigm. No. It's ONE of the fundamental paradigms. One can go 15-85 without a single quest through LFD, or 10-85 without a single quest in Battlegrounds. That's the first 9-14 levels of being "forced" to quest (Not entirelly forced. You can grind monsters for pure exp. It's not the fastest way, but why not? And actually, with rare spawns, it's not only feasible, but really effective to hunt them. Than again, let us assume the new player hasn't a clue about them, which is likelly, so, ignore this idea.)
And quests, on themselves, are varied. Dungeon quests are one thing, daily quests are another, regular quests another. I doubt anyone who runs LFD to level would ignore the quests out of principlie for hating to quest. They're conviniently placed, so why not? However, questing that requires travel and exploration is fairilly different.
And of course you saying whichever doesn't mean anyone's going to follow it, but what kind of an argument can we have if you say "Anyone who doesn't like questing shouldn't play", but actually mean "People who don't like questing shouldn't play, but be my guest"? So... What is the point to that statement, even underlined? Just saying it to say it, and provide no discussion on the matter? It's a forum... Implying discussing topics. If you spell out blank statements without meaning them, what can we discuss?
I happen to agree that I'd personally like some extra difficulty... because I'm biased. I'm levelling a paladin, one of the favored classes to solo. I levelled my priest with a friend, and the constant drinking (Since I'm a DoT class and don't get Mind Spike until ABUSIVELLY LATE) and flow is actually frustrating when I'm alone.
Leveling a priest was not particularly difficult, although I did level a warrior in vanilla and they along with rogues were considered to be very solo-unfriendly. But none of the current 1-60 mobs are that strong that you need to struggle to beat one or even two at a time. Shadow doesn't really become useful until you get shadowform; prior to that it is better to level as disc.
Mana refills itself quite fast at low levels when you are out of combat rending drinking unnecessary for the majority of the time, and once you get SW:Death you can glyph it to restore your mana if you use it and fail to kill the target.
I didn't say I struggle to beat them. I said it's frustrating to have to drink between every 6-7mobs if their distance wasn't enough to have to mount. You see, that doesn't add dificulty. That adds time. Mobs having a knockup (Let's assume only priests here) that would force me to levitate to survive a fall, that's added difficulty. Mobs with +5000 health? That's added frustration. They merelly take longer to kill, spending more resources, and leaving a wider gap between classes that don't use spendable resources (like Ret Paladins, whose mana is endless when they don't have to heal, and even so, debatably endless with seal of light) and classes that do.
And glyphed Death is worthless for mana regen before Masochism (lvl.43), and is a double edged sword. I'm going to damage myself if SW:D fails to kill, meaning I have to shield or heal to get that health back or avoid losing it, which means I'm going to spend resources to gain resources. (Vamp.Embrace is pathetic at this level in terms of health return.) Once again, new players might not even be aware of SW:D's glyph's existance.
I did level Discipline before Shadowform. I never struggled on single mobs either. It's the mana downtimes that really make you scratch your head. That's not more difficulty, that's just more time. My paladin took mobs on packs of whatever I could find, really. 5-6-7-8, you name it, non-elite and my level, they'd go down. My priest taking the same route would be OOM on each pack pull and couldn't even think about trying it without starting with full mana. The point of this whole story isn't that it is hard to level a priest - it's not. It's hard
er
to level a priest than it is to level a paladin. So, when balancing the new mobs, which should be the balancing factor? The priest risking unecessary downtime, or the paladin risking extreme defiiculty to the other classes? That was my original question.
Why is his opinion less valid than yours? Endgame PvE is a metagame, PvP is another, Levelling is another. Just because levelling happens to be a requirement, it doesn't entitle you to state that if you don't like it, the game should be off-limits. That's up to me, or any other player, to decide if it's worth it to go through levels to meet endgame and experience the new metagame that comes with it. You cannot just state who wants what, who's entitled to do what and expect people to go along with it.
These are all facets of the same game...and the leveling process continues once you reach the max character level because you then shift your focus on item level. Unfortunately, the end game experience is a pure grind whereas the character leveling process offers a bit more variety.
Your assessment that I believe his opinion is "less valid" is entirely off base. His comment is simply off the mark. There are a lot of people who dislike the leveling process but endure it so they can sit in raid finder queues to do the same raid over and over again - fine, do that, but that is no justification for dumbing down the character leveling aspect of the game.
If they're content to leave the leveling process as it is now, a mindless 1-button mash fest, why stop there? Why not make raids solo-able? Why maintain a requirement that dungeons NEED to be performed as a group of players...how about I do the dungeon solo and the other 4 roles are fulfilled by NPCs? Same for raids...I solo a boss, but the other 24 members of the raid are NPCs.
The thing is, even if levelling process continues, it's substantially different than it is during 1-84. You will not level questing anymore. And variety during levelling is questionable. If you love the lore - which I personally do - and do your quests immersing into the world, sure, it's widelly varied. If you just strip it down to the core, it's just a bunch of quests to gather X of item Z or kill NPC #20392 30 times, with that added flavor every 20 quests, but fundamentally, a grind. Running dungeons as a means to an end - gearing, or doing quests as a means to an end - levelling to cap. Both are just grinds. Obviously, you may just happen to love dungeon/questing, and they may not feel like a grind to you. But that's what they all are.
It's no justification to dumb down levelling - perhaps. I can't say that I disagree fully. I'd actually love to keep the same time to level, but have epic encounters even with your regular mob that would yield massive XP, but take gargantuan levels of effort to kill solo. I'd personally love that! But I see the current model as an approach I'm also confortable with. If all that would change was health pools, I'd actually not like it that much - it's added difficulty for the hell of it - but redesigning mobs to be challenging single-player routes would be awsome. I know several people who dislike WoW's social aspect, being the only reason keeping them from playing.
Finally, WoW is a multiplayer game. I'd actually love to have a "lore mode" to do raids on my own, without having to deal with loot, or other players' trolling, at my own pace. but that's hardly happening. Fact is, even though there's been a lot of care for lower levels in Cataclysm, the challenge is still all on end-game, and Blizzard encourage that, towards the multi-player aspect, comprehensivelly. I don't know if you're familiar with it, but PvP is a complete and utter disgrace at lower levels. Rogues are able to one-shot you with Ambush at some levels. Hunters have abusive levels of kiting when you lack all the tools you should have to avoid it because you're not high enough level to train them. Spells vary wildly and incomprehensivelly (balance-wise) between levels and ranks and classes.
Through the patches of Cataclysm, have you seen a note addressing this issue? And that's the experience of 84 levels of PVP. However, level 85 PvP - in all it's unbalances and flaws - has ben continuously taken into account and fixed. The same isues with PvE apply, but lower level content... not so much. The effort it would take to change all monsters into a challenge - a personalised challenge - is a child's dream and I know it. If you ask if I'm for the mere health pool buff... Meh. That adds more frustration than difficulty. The other changes would be massive and take huge effort...
Oh god, I capped characters for a post. Oops.
Post by
lankybrit
Mobs are fine. You want a balance between easy to kill mobs and frustratingly annoying ones.
It's the number of mobs and re-spawn times that dictate their difficulty, not their HP. Why do I want to spend 3 minutes killing things for a quest, when I can currently take 2 minutes. If the mobs are spaced out, upping the HP doesn't change the difficulty, just the tedium and frustration.
And don't get me started on Elite mobs. The only thing that Elite mob quests did was show me which quests to skip completely. It doesn't give a challenge, it gives skippable content. Blizzard realized this, so they moved away from that.
Cheers.
Post by
Dilbo
None of these things appeal to meWell then, I guess we have nothing further to say. Even if they did up the quest mobs, I doubt you'd be happy anyways.
I don't want frustratingly difficult or overpowered mobs like the old Guild Wars used to have once you got closer to level 20, just better balance between their attack/HP and player attack/HP.
I never said I blew through my mana in one mob. And smite doesn't two-shot mobs if you're level 30+ - maybe with heirlooms, but on quest greens, it really does not. Much less on Outlands, where Discipline levelling starts failing, but shadow still doesn't quite have the mana tools it should.
You get shadowform at level 29, that's a good time to make a switch to shadow. Unlike before, intellect buffs spellpower which drastically raises damage since all caster gear has +int on it. In the past you'd need enchants or items with spellpower on them to gain more spell dmg.
Shadow priests have always had to include "mana management" as part of their skill set. Doesn't matter if you are pve or pvp, if you're careless as shadow you will empty your mana quite quickly.
And this is still assuming you do not challenge yourself. I regularly pulled 4-5packs, but while my paladin could get out of a pack of 5 mobs full health, my priest surelly could not at some levels. Well, maybe full health, but entirelly depleted on mana. If you're limiting yourself to single pulls, you're not taking the potential of your skillset to it's fullest, and class discrepancies are more noticeable when pushed to the limit.
Listen, a priest IS NOT a tank. It is a clothie. It is not designed or intended to handle multiple attackers effectively which is why you have virtually no defensive CDs aside from PW:S and later on, dispersion. There is no point in stating that a priest has more difficulty dealing with multiple mobs than a paladin or DK, both classes with tanking specs available to them.
I am not talking about killing multiple mobs at once - I am talking about one-on-one, where the mobs are too weak and go down too easily 9 out of 10 times.
Oh, but not at all. You see, you claimed it as a maximum. I'm saying that there are several people who wouldn't fit that maximum, refuting your ideal that people should or should not be playing.
Should not, as in "recommendation" which you are attempting to frame as me saying CANNOT. There is a distinct difference and it is entirely fair to say that someone who doesn't enjoy questing/leveling should not play a game that revolves around questing & leveling. The horse is dead, beat it more if you'd like.
You made unquestionable "It is as I say" claims for everyone, and people who don't agree are refusing them.
False. That is your interpretation of what I said...and of course if someone disagrees I am going to respond to the objections and reinforce my position. It's a discussion slash debate. That is the purpose of a forum, isn't it?
Well, just say that "most" or "some" will be discouraged by the questing experience and not reach level cap to enjoy the rest. Possible. Don't come in and state everyone is like this.
You're trying to make an argument based on me being overly general, yet you're ultimate rebuttal is that "most" people will not like this change. The change worked fine up to cata, and it was only after cata that blizzard started bleeding customers.
You are trying to make it very black & white - game too hard = people quit. Not necessarily so linear.
It's a false assumption and it lost all validity in Cataclysm's LFD/BG Experience, even if before it was already a naive assumption that no one would quest his way to level cap just to enjoy endgame without even caring or liking to quest.
No, not really a false assumption. The numbers don't lie and Blizzard has never really been about transparency...but the stats they did share is that many of the "newcomers" that supposedly joined because the game was dumbed down also left when they realized it was rather dull.
Do you think that if WoW was released, as it is now, as a brand new game without any prior history in the MMO market that it would "catch on" like it did originally? I doubt it.
And this semantic discussion is not really the point, but I'll address it anyway. If a game is essentially perfect, but one of it's soundtracks has a glitch and skips a second in an awkward way, the game company fixes it. What was this? Tailoring the game to perfection or fixing an issue? I think you'll find it was both. The game wasn't perfect because of that flaw, and became perfect after that was sorted, thus, got tailored to perfection. It was also fixing an issue.
Fixes can also be changes to allow the game to play better. I never said add new monsters or give them new abilities. All I suggested was to dial up their stats to be inline with players' stats. If you consider this "tailoring to perfection" then you're hopelessly stuck in some extremist viewpoint.
There is no synonymy between "tailoring to perfection" and "fixing issues" or "making subtle adjustments".
OK, I'll repeat it. Player X loves PvP but hates PvE. It so happens that several pieces of BiS gear for his PvP set require PvE. Should X quit the game?
This is not an accurate comparison because player X may be "disappointed" that he has to raid to get some item he believes to be BiS for his class, but not having said item does not diminish his pvp experience with items he gets from pvp vendors.
In other words he can still participate in pvp, whereas the guy who "hates leveling" and wants to "start at 85 if he could, or blow through quests asap" is actively rejecting a fundamental element of the game.
PvP and PvE are both optional and, like me, you can avoid raids and dungeons and be perfectly content...well...not really, I would like more pvp-related content. I actually enjoy a well-mixed pvp and pve type of scenario but that is another topic in itself.
t's ONE of the fundamental paradigms. One can go 15-85 without a single quest through LFD, or 10-85 without a single quest in Battlegrounds.
Doesn't matter how you do it, but you will HAVE TO level up ANY character you choose. DKs let you start at 55, and if you get that friend scroll thing you can bump them up to 80....but there is no option to start at end-game level unless you buy an account. For that reason it is a fundamental and unavoidable paradigm that all players will have to participate in, and if they do not like the process of leveling up, setting talent points optimally for a given level, replacing gear, etc...then this game is likely going to be tedious for them.
In an effort to cut down on typing I'm going to say that Blizzard could introduce realms that have varied difficulty levels tailored to player preferences, even if the differences are minute. They probably won't ever do that because it would mess up consistency in the game and probably be too confusing to new players.
As it stands now, WoW is rather unfriendly to a total noob who never played the game before. They sorta expect you to know a lot of stuff just to be competitive. Maybe they should revise the earlier levels to be more of an optional tutorial mode rather than immediately jumping into a grind. That way, mobs could be buffed and all players would at least know they could deal with them.
Post by
331902
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
bearmug
If it's too much trouble for you to find ONE OTHER PERSON to help you down a boss elite for a quest chain, you are going to have a lot of trouble finding 24 other people to complete any raids or 9 other people to do rated BGs, or 2 other people to do 3v3 arena.
Are you actually comparing trying to find someone in deserted area like Nagrand that's actually willing and able to help a mage do Nagrand arena questline to a 25 man end game raid?
Well.
Yes, I have problems finding help (outside of a guild boost) for Nagrand/Zul'Drak arena questline in a zone that has 1 person in zone channel: me.
I don't have problems finding people to come to a raid or arena or rated BG at end level because there are a LOT of people at end level. Just go to a city and ask in LFG/Trade/General.
That's the difference between leveling and end level.
Also, tailoring 'challenging mobs' for a DK or paladin means mages and rogues will be in trouble. Similarly, tailoring mobs for mages to kill easily will mean DK or paladin won't take any damage.
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331902
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160546
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781960
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331902
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781960
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Post by
yukonjack
I have literally let my nephew try the game out and he's 5. If he can play the game, I expect no less from anyone else.
This proves mobs should have more hp and attack power how?
Post by
781960
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