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QOTD Thread #332- Do you think that people should keep cats outdoors?
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Post by
Jubilee
I know I exist because I...
The question assumes my existence already for me, so the only correct answers are in the affirmative. You can't say "I don't know I exist" without "I" referring to something. If I can give an answer to the question, the answer must therefore necessarily be that I do exist. If I don't exist, my answer doesn't exist either, and so it cannot be wrong.
Post by
MyTie
I know I exist because I...
The question assumes my existence already for me, so the only correct answers are in the affirmative. You can't say "I don't know I exist" without "I" referring to something.
A character in a movie can say "I exist", but that character is a work of fiction. Theoretically, Jubilee could be an advanced computer virus that lives on the internet, imitates human intelligence and avoids detection, but chooses to keep the ego part of its personality ignorant of its true existence, and only present in a vastly complex imagined world. Then your existence is nothing more than a line of code. In that case, a character in a work of fiction does truly exist, but not in the way that you believe you exist. If you are proposing that the nature of existence could be wide enough to encompass nature in the way that you don't currently understand it, then I'm open to that discussion.
Post by
Jubilee
I know I exist because I...
The question assumes my existence already for me, so the only correct answers are in the affirmative. You can't say "I don't know I exist" without "I" referring to something.
A character in a movie can say "I exist", but that character is a work of fiction. Theoretically, Jubilee could be an advanced computer virus that lives on the internet, imitates human intelligence and avoids detection, but chooses to keep the ego part of its personality ignorant of its true existence, and only present in a vastly complex imagined world. Then your existence is nothing more than a line of code. In that case, a character in a work of fiction does truly exist, but not in the way that you believe you exist. If you are proposing that the nature of existence could be wide enough to encompass nature in the way that you don't currently understand it, then I'm open to that discussion.
A character doesn't say anything. Actors say things. When you say a character says something, you're using personification. I cannot ask Hamlet whether he exists, and he cannot make a statement either way. Eimuntas Nekrosius can say that Hamlet exists or doesn't exist. Shakespeare could say that Hamlet exists or doesn't exist. But Hamlet could not. If he could, then the answer would be undoubtedly yes.
Post by
Magician22773
Because the voices in my head told me I do.
Post by
MyTie
A character doesn't say anything. Actors say things. When you say a character says something, you're using personification. I cannot ask Hamlet whether he exists, and he cannot make a statement either way. Eimuntas Nekrosius can say that Hamlet exists or doesn't exist. Shakespeare could say that Hamlet exists or doesn't exist. But Hamlet could not. If he could, then the answer would be undoubtedly yes.
How do you know that you are not a complex and interactive personification that is oblivious to its own lack of true existence?
Post by
Jubilee
How do you know that you are not a complex and interactive personification that is oblivious to its own lack of true existence?
I'm going to highlight the parts of that question that make it only valid and capable of being answered if I do exist.
"How do you know that you are not a complex and interactive personification that is oblivious to its own lack of true existence?"
You can't ask me questions about my existence without assuming that I am capable of answering and therefore exist. If you expect a truthful and logical answer, it can only be one that affirms my existence. A valid negative answer would not exist.
Take note. I am not saying you know that I exist. I'm not saying anyone knows anyone else exists. I'm not even saying that I know that I exists. I'm saying the question is just a logical word-play like "Will you answer this question?"
Post by
MyTie
You can't ask me questions about my existence without assuming that I am capable of answering and therefore exist. If you expect a truthful and logical answer, it can only be one that affirms my existence. A valid negative answer would not exist.I disagree. Personifications CAN answer questions about their own existence, but they still don't exist the way you believe you exist. A great example is
Alice
exists just as much as you do. In fact, ask her if she exists, and see what she says. Intelligence, the ability to produce answers about oneself, does not denote actual existence.
Imagine in the future, if you could program a program like Alice to experience a complex and human existence, and yet be oblivious to its true nature. Why couldn't you be a program in the future, thinking you live in 2012 as a true human?
Post by
Jubilee
It's not the ability to produce answers that I am talking about. I'm talking about the answer-seeking question directed at things. If you ask the question "do you exist" the only valid answer you can get is yes. It's just a logical point. Whether we're talking about a human, a computer, or a rock, it's still the same. The only valid answer is yes. Something cannot both not exist and affirm that it doesn't exist.
HOW we exist isn't the question. WHETHER we exist is. I understand that you believe a computer program doesn't exist the same way a human exists. What it is, is a question of whether it can or cannot affirm its own existence according to the rules of logic.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Ksero
I can not be sure i exist, sometime in the future we will be able to simulate completely self-aware life on a computer. There is no way i can be sure that i myself am not a simulation. The fact is that it doesnt matter, even if i don't "exist" i still have emotions, feelings, and my decisions impact myself and the people around me, even if it isn't real, i can't tell that it's not.
Post by
MyTie
It's not the ability to produce answers that I am talking about. I'm talking about the answer-seeking question directed at things. If you ask the question "do you exist" the only valid answer you can get is yes. It's just a logical point. Whether we're talking about a human, a computer, or a rock, it's still the same. The only valid answer is yes. Something cannot both not exist and affirm that it doesn't exist.
HOW we exist isn't the question. WHETHER we exist is. I understand that you believe a computer program doesn't exist the same way a human exists. What it is, is a question of whether it can or cannot affirm its own existence according to the rules of logic.
Hence "I think, therefore I am". Outside of deep Nihlism, I think this holds true. I don't know if it is empirical truth, but it's good enough for me.This is kind of derp.How so?
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Jubilee
Hence "I think, therefore I am". Outside of deep Nihlism, I think this holds true. I don't know if it is empirical truth, but it's good enough for me.
Okay. But that's not really even close to what I've been saying.
Post by
MyTie
If you ask the question "do you exist" the only valid answer you can get is yesI think, therefore I am.that's not really even close to what I've been saying.
Eh?
Post by
Noxychu
I dont triangle how I know because apricot.
Post by
Jubilee
If you ask the question "do you exist" the only valid answer you can get is yesI think, therefore I am.that's not really even close to what I've been saying.
Eh?
I am not saying you know that I exist. I'm not saying anyone knows anyone else exists. I'm not even saying that I know that I exists.
All I am saying is that the question is loaded and is simply a logical novelty like "Will you answer this question?"
Post by
FatalHeaven
I believe I exist in my/our universe. I don't need to know how. I don't care to know how. It's an arguable subject that you could run yourself in circles discussing, while banging your head against the wall. At the end of the day, all you've accomplished is one hell of a headache.
With all due respect to MyTie, it seems as though you wanted this question purely so you would have something to debate. I never thought of this thread as a debate thread. I just thought it was a fun Q&A. Has it changed? Did I miss something? Can we have just one thread where it isn't a debate? :-/
Post by
Monday
Are you at all bothered by the lack of reasoning for your existence?
Not really. I have enough evidence to prove to myself that I exist, and assuming that my mental faculties are in order, I have enough observational data to prove that other people exist, to me, anyways.
I have a view on reality based around my sensory information, and barring long-term application of hallucinogens or other such mind altering substances (government pesticides are to kill your senses. Trufax), I can assume that my mental faculties are in order and base my view of the universe on what I observe with them.
tl;dr, I think, therefor I am. I think you exist, therefor you do.
Also, this: I dont triangle how I know because apricot.
Post by
MyTie
All I am saying is that the question is loaded and is simply a logical novelty like "Will you answer this question?"Yes, but more fun.With all due respect to MyTie, it seems as though you wanted this question purely so you would have something to debate. I never thought of this thread as a debate thread. I just thought it was a fun Q&A. Has it changed? Did I miss something? Can we have just one thread where it isn't a debate? :-/
There are several threads that specifically avoid debate. Since this is "QOT day", I'm sure it will be back to norm tomorrow.I dont triangle how I know because apricot.
This = nail + head
Post by
Rankkor
I know I exist because I got a FRIKKING NASTY ITCH ON MY BACK.
If I didn't existed, this itch wouldn't exist either would it?
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