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New the Heorics is too easy......
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Post by
Gaseraki
I approve of the new dungeons. Actually I might be close to saying they are perfect.
Can be done in a decent time, and boss mechanics which lets bad people die and force them to improve.
Sadly I find some bosses have bad RNG mechanics. Sylvanas raped me in a flurry or every single ability she can do directed at me.
I would be close to saying they are the best 5 man hcs to date.
The wrath HCs by the end were faceroll. They were close to faceroll at the beginning when I was green geared but by 3.3 they were just piss easy, never wiped. Even with retards.
The 3.3 5man hcs were harder but really boring. All of them took far too long and had forced encounters which took too long. It didn't get that much harder either.
The troll HCs were just a bit too hard and loooong. Not hard for a bunch of competitent friends but with 1 or 2 people who were idiots. God dam it.
The Cata ones were ok interms of progression as a pre req to HCs but again too long and too hard for badge farming.
Enjoying the new HCs very much. Hope I dont get bored of lore force feeding any time soon.
Post by
Kailhun
The new heroics are easy? Good.
At least I can do them without getting yelled at and insulted just because it's the first time I do them.
I had hoped that the jackasses had moved away from the Troll-dungeons and to the Twilight dungeons, so I could get down to enjoying the Troll-dungeons.
Turns out that the Twilight dungeons are easy and I might even get to enjoy them while the jackasses are still there.
Nice.
Post by
lonewarrior
For all the posters telling the OP to just lower his iLevel value if he wants difficulty...that's not progression.
A player could strip himself to enjoy all the old runs in a challenging way, but again that is not progression.
Progression just doesn't include gear but the method of its acquisition.
These debates that occur with every major patch is a flaw in the progression model itself.
The reason why old time player often spout the TBC model is because everything staggered so reasonably well. Eight raids and 16 heroic dungeons that melded gear progression. You only did the runs that gave immediate improvement to your gear but there were so many options.
Progression flowed smoothly, it matched your time sink without it becoming irrelevant.
Now you do the same LFD runs every day which quickly become overgeared borefest, for points to enter the one current raid contents that offer any challenge.
They reset progression and we start all over again...progression on their terms. This favors the casual! O.o
This is called stagnation.
Players talk about the time sink of old being too burdening ...but the time sink today is just as bad and boring to boot.
Five man dungeons too hard/too easy...that argument will always be here. If we only had to run them for drops till we could move on their probably wouldn't be this argument.
Don't know when Blizz got the idea that the current method of progression was better then their model of TBC and before anyone touts that overused lined "10.3 millions say they are right"
well...NEWSFLASH...there were 11.5 million at the end of TBC that says they were already doing it right.
If Blizz had stayed on that course and implemented some tweaks to improve upward progression for slow/late comer/pugger players who knows where we would be right now subs wise. 13 mill...14 mill ?
Peace.
Post by
533681
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
skumbananer
5man content progress goes like this:
1. ding 85.
2. Do a couple of normals, while finishing questing for some nice blues.
3. Buy a piece or two of JP gear, do some 4,0 HCs, grind some faction reps.
4. Buy a VP piece and a JP piece, farm ZG/ZA, maybe fill up with a piece from PVP
5. Your now in a mix of 1-2 VP pieces and JP+ZA gear, ready for 4.3 HCs.
That is the crowd those heroics are aimed at, not a 5man group of people who are decked out in HC Firelands raid gear. It is still a bit undertuned, but if everyone in your 5man group is gearing gear aquired from steps 1 to 5. those instances are somewhat better tuned.
Post by
273977
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Post by
146856
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Post by
Spinkert
OK well maybe it isn't too easy....
Did a run on my hunter que for Well of Eternity the group had me hunter, port pally, DPS DK, DPS rouge and Disc priest. Got to Queen Azshara and BAM no one interrupt I am sorry but 3 out of 5 ppl can interrupt but none did it >< wipe 3 times and I give up..........
It is easy, because all it takes is asking who is going to interrupt before starting the fight. If I'm on a class that can interrupt, I always say I'll do it. If I can't interrupt, I ask who is doing it. If no one is going to interrupt, then it's pointless and time to leave.
Post by
893694
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
yukonjack
For all the posters telling the OP to just lower his iLevel value if he wants difficulty...that's not progression.
A player could strip himself to enjoy all the old runs in a challenging way, but again that is not progression.
Progression just doesn't include gear but the method of its acquisition.
These debates that occur with every major patch is a flaw in the progression model itself.
The reason why old time player often spout the TBC model is because everything staggered so reasonably well. Eight raids and 16 heroic dungeons that melded gear progression. You only did the runs that gave immediate improvement to your gear but there were so many options.
Progression flowed smoothly, it matched your time sink without it becoming irrelevant.
Now you do the same LFD runs every day which quickly become overgeared borefest, for points to enter the one current raid contents that offer any challenge.
They reset progression and we start all over again...progression on their terms. This favors the casual! O.o
This is called stagnation.
Players talk about the time sink of old being too burdening ...but the time sink today is just as bad and boring to boot.
Five man dungeons too hard/too easy...that argument will always be here. If we only had to run them for drops till we could move on their probably wouldn't be this argument.
Don't know when Blizz got the idea that the current method of progression was better then their model of TBC and before anyone touts that overused lined "10.3 millions say they are right"
well...NEWSFLASH...there were 11.5 million at the end of TBC that says they were already doing it right.
If Blizz had stayed on that course and implemented some tweaks to improve upward progression for slow/late comer/pugger players who knows where we would be right now subs wise. 13 mill...14 mill ?
Peace.
Wrong. So far as the TBC model of progression is concerned the way I remember it is if you werent gearing straight away at launch every week and month you were late made it exponetially harder to gear to the most current raid. So as TBC dragged on it became virtually impossible to gear for example Black Temple in a reasonable amount of time if you were a fresh 70.
With the current model of gear progression a player could have left the game at the launch of Cata and returned now a year later and within a couple weeks (individual results may vary) be geared appropriately for Dragon Soul.
Post by
904040
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
lonewarrior
For all the posters telling the OP to just lower his iLevel value if he wants difficulty...that's not progression.
A player could strip himself to enjoy all the old runs in a challenging way, but again that is not progression.
Progression just doesn't include gear but the method of its acquisition.
These debates that occur with every major patch is a flaw in the progression model itself.
The reason why old time player often spout the TBC model is because everything staggered so reasonably well. Eight raids and 16 heroic dungeons that melded gear progression. You only did the runs that gave immediate improvement to your gear but there were so many options.
Progression flowed smoothly, it matched your time sink without it becoming irrelevant.
Now you do the same LFD runs every day which quickly become overgeared borefest, for points to enter the one current raid contents that offer any challenge.
They reset progression and we start all over again...progression on their terms. This favors the casual! O.o
This is called stagnation.
Players talk about the time sink of old being too burdening ...but the time sink today is just as bad and boring to boot.
Five man dungeons too hard/too easy...that argument will always be here. If we only had to run them for drops till we could move on their probably wouldn't be this argument.
Don't know when Blizz got the idea that the current method of progression was better then their model of TBC and before anyone touts that overused lined "10.3 millions say they are right"
well...NEWSFLASH...there were 11.5 million at the end of TBC that says they were already doing it right.
If Blizz had stayed on that course and implemented some tweaks to improve upward progression for slow/late comer/pugger players who knows where we would be right now subs wise. 13 mill...14 mill ?
Peace.
Wrong. So far as the TBC model of progression is concerned the way I remember it is if you werent gearing straight away at launch every week and month you were late made it exponetially harder to gear to the most current raid. So as TBC dragged on it became virtually impossible to gear for example Black Temple in a reasonable amount of time if you were a fresh 70.
With the current model of gear progression a player could have left the game at the launch of Cata and returned now a year later and within a couple weeks (individual results may vary) be geared appropriately for Dragon Soul.
If Blizz had stayed on that course and implemented some tweaks to improve upward progression for slow/late comer/pugger players who knows where we would be right now subs wise. 13 mill...14 mill ?
did you not read that last part I pasted above?
In Korea they are experimenting with double lock out for older raids....hmmmm that would have helped during TBC wouldn't you agree.
Also..contents is contents. If the mindset has become only the highest endgame contents is of any play value then a player might as well wait for the last patch of any expansion and then sign up.
When I started, TBC was just about 10 months old...by the time Wrath came around, I had just gotten some BT done.
So...what's the big deal...does not seeing all of BT and Sunwell mean my whole experience up to that point meant nothing. O.o
I accepted my accomplishment...I don't have the mindset of a child.
My progression was constant and relevant and my guild was happy with the way we progressed as well. The server progression was across the spectrum. Nothing was old or irrelevant.
I shudder to think that had the current method been in place, I would have missed one of the best raids(Karazhan) this game ever saw, in the fashion it was meant to be run.
Now a person coming in late or progressing slowly is pretty much made to skip everything for whatever is left.
I can only speak for myself, but for my money, the play value/timesink value/subscription value from TBC was far greater then now.
Post by
836277
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
lonewarrior
Now a person coming in late or progressing slowly is pretty much made to skip everything for whatever is left.
maybe, but solely because of the ilvl/stat inflation that makes any gear from previous expansions (including top level raid gear) instantly useless the moment you have done a few quests in the new one.
Top level dungeons have nothing to do with it, nor does gameplay in general.
And that inflation existed in TBC as well. Classic raid gear would be replaced after the first few stops in helfire ramparts, so nothing's changed at all.
Someone just starting out say a few weeks after TBC hit the market would never see classic raids until he hit 70 and got bored of chain running TBC heroics.
You're just looking (as all the people claiming the past was infinitely better) at your past experience through thoroughly rose tinted glasses.
Maybe you should remove the shattered lenses of your glasses first...because you seem to view everything in the past in error.
No one has mentioned the expansion to expansion gear levels inflation. We are talking about progression within a particular expansion timeframe.
Not sure what your reading from my post.
My debate to this thread has been the model of progression itself. You hear with each patch "it's too easy"...it's too hard". Blizz can't figure out how to tune them because they are trying to please the whole segment of their maxed population at once instead of letting the smaller front end raider population guide them like in the past.
So when the rest of us catch up they will have tuned current contents properly with small tweaks and have knowledge of how to have tuned future contents.
With the current state of progression, unless your a front end raider..you never get a chance to get your feet under you. As a casual player, they pull the rug from out under you with each patch.
There is no consistency..you just take everyone whether they want to or not, whether they are ready or not and catapult them to the next patch.
So old vs new method...
Cata resets progression...TBC didn't.
Cata negates gear with each patch...TBC didn't.
TBC valued all its contents as relevant, no matter when you first started. You took the same path as everyone else. Everything you did mattered so you got your moneys worth from the game.
Cata considers everything that came before a new patch as obsolete. So any new player will now pretty much skip a years worth of this expansion just to re-run old dungeons over and over for accumulating points, long after they present any challenge for the sake of the last raid.
So who gets the greater play value for what they spent money on?
I already stated my view..everyone else has a right to their own with out silly remarks.
"rose colored glasses" plllleeeassssee drop that dopey phrase from use already. It's older then dirt. Only obnoxious people still use that phrase.
Post by
Adamsm
Cata resets progression...TBC didn't.
Cata negates gear with each patch...TBC didn't.
TBC valued all its contents as relevant, no matter when you first started. You took the same path as everyone else. Everything you did mattered so you got your moneys worth from the game. Of course, TBC had vicious Heroics that would regularly wipe even guild groups(H SH, SL, BM); and Magisters....yeah back in the day, if you weren't in a guild group, good luck at actually completing that place. TBC also was violent to anyone wanting to try a new class; you could not get pugs for those back in the day, till the expansion was in the final days before Wrath came out. TBC was also vicious on guilds that didn't have the best of the best; my own guild of the time, due to the fact that we had lives on the outside, progressed no farther then Gruul, who we could, maybe, if we were lucky, field enough people to actually run the place. Then there was the fact that only the best of the best saw the finale of Sunwell; your average Tom, *!@# and Harry guild did not, as that content had the opening trash that could and would destroy you. So yes, all content 'mattered' in TBC...to the bane of anyone who wanted a new toon, or found a new recruit that needed to be geared up; even the addition of the Justice Badge gear and ZA still made it hard to get into later half of T5 and T6.
At least with Wrath and Cata, you aren't penalized because of your guild and could still see the content.
And Rose Coloured Glasses will always be a relevant comment...since people put them on a lot to gloss over the issues that exist in each of the expansions.
Post by
lonewarrior
Cata resets progression...TBC didn't.
Cata negates gear with each patch...TBC didn't.
TBC valued all its contents as relevant, no matter when you first started. You took the same path as everyone else. Everything you did mattered so you got your moneys worth from the game. Of course, TBC had vicious Heroics that would regularly wipe even guild groups(H SH, SL, BM); and Magisters....yeah back in the day, if you weren't in a guild group, good luck at actually completing that place. TBC also was violent to anyone wanting to try a new class; you could not get pugs for those back in the day, till the expansion was in the final days before Wrath came out. TBC was also vicious on guilds that didn't have the best of the best; my own guild of the time, due to the fact that we had lives on the outside, progressed no farther then Gruul, who we could, maybe, if we were lucky, field enough people to actually run the place. Then there was the fact that only the best of the best saw the finale of Sunwell; your average Tom, *!@# and Harry guild did not, as that content had the opening trash that could and would destroy you. So yes, all content 'mattered' in TBC...to the bane of anyone who wanted a new toon, or found a new recruit that needed to be geared up; even the addition of the Justice Badge gear and ZA still made it hard to get into later half of T5 and T6.
At least with Wrath and Cata, you aren't penalized because of your guild and could still see the content.
And Rose Coloured Glasses will always be a relevant comment...since people put them on a lot to gloss over the issues that exist in each of the expansions.
But your still missing the body of my comments...as I stated TBC was the platform they should have continued to improve on.
I never said it was perfect...nothing ever is. The very start of Wrath even showed some of that evolution. Until they decide to just change course midway.
As for not being in a guild group...well....what kept anyone from being in a good guild group?
My guild sounded a lot like your in those days too..we managed...it's just a mindset I guess, you either think the game is worth playing for the sake of playing or you view not being able to see the whole enchilada as a waste of money, time and coding. Too each his own.
At least my way I was never disappointed...how do you solve the ratio with the other mindset.
What percentage is enough without losing play value...should 40% of the pop see the entire contents..50%..60%..where do you draw the line. Why not make it a pinata and let 99% of the population see contents.
This is the drawback when the mindset becomes endgame value and not the value of the entire game.
Yes late rollers in TBC saw it almost impossible to get to endgame contents..but Cata just does the opposite..now you miss the entire expansion to get to the end.
Sunwell was just a gift to the extreme hardcore. Even Blizz admits it was the most difficult raid they ever created and would not go that route again. They just wanted to see how hard they could create something to challenge the likes of Paragon and such.
Anyway..had they taken the best of what they had back then and combine it with the best of what they are doing now and who knows how much more enjoyable this game might be.
The question is, has today's model of progression created a better player.?
Well I'll just say..that if we took a body of average players from TBC era and transported them instantly into Cata..they would flourish...I can't say the same in reverse.
Finally... for all the difficulties that you mention..by the end of TBC the community had grown to 11.5 million...were they all wearing rose colored glasses !O.o?
What color are the 10.3 million wearing today ?
Post by
429136
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Post by
422399
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
422399
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Yes late rollers in TBC saw it almost impossible to get to endgame contents..but Cata just does the opposite..now you miss the entire expansion to get to the end.Except, if you want to, you can go back and see the original raids for the content; I still see groups looking for BoT, BWL, BH and FL going. That's not something you could get in the days of BC; because there was such a steep entrance fee. I'm sorry, but I don't see the addition of Justice and Valor points as cheapening of the game, I don't see the new content as somehow being greater then the old, and I don't see why anyone else feels the need to lock out other players, who pay the same money a month everyone else does.
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