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Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
For those concerned about the new Specs:
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Post by
Atik
voluntarily gimping yourself in lieu of more creativity shouldn't be compatible with the new (cataclysm's) phylosophy behind daily PvE
Why not?
That was the most fun part about talents, and the reason I want the old Trees back.
Post by
Carukia
Save your passive aggressive trolling, it's making you sound bitter and petty. You can try to color it any way you want to make yourself feel better but the cold hard fact of the matter is that these changes mark another significant dumbing down of the game.
You can say it all you when, but when your only real argument is "because I can no longer purposely gimp myself" it feels a little thin.
Post by
Carukia
voluntarily gimping yourself in lieu of more creativity shouldn't be compatible with the new (cataclysm's) phylosophy behind daily PvE
Why not?
That was the most fun part about talents, and the reason I want the old Trees back.
If that's what you really want, boy are you missing out on Rift...
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Atik
voluntarily gimping yourself in lieu of more creativity shouldn't be compatible with the new (cataclysm's) phylosophy behind daily PvE
Why not?
That was the most fun part about talents, and the reason I want the old Trees back.
If that's what you really want, boy are you missing out on Rift...
Tried it.
Didn't like the story.
Post by
229054
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Post by
870547
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Atik
I generally don't respond to what I believe are trolls, but I'd ask you to at least tell me what the significant dumbing down we'll go through.
I've seen you post Delt, come on man, you're smarter than that.
People often gloss over the most obvious things. Apparently I am not above that. Could you give me any examples as to why the old talent system requires more thought than the new one?
Because for every single level up you had to decide whih point would be best spent that level?
Post by
229054
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Post by
161859
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229054
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161859
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Post by
870547
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229054
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Post by
ChairmanKaga
Could you give me any examples as to why the old talent system requires more thought than the new one?
Because for every single level up you had to decide whih point would be best spent that level?
There was never any choice in the old talent trees, just the illusion thereof. Talents were either:
so painfully obvious you had to take them, or
so non-affective that the choice truly didn't matter.
GC gave the canonical example of 1 at Blizzcon with fury warrior's Raging Blow -- if you skipped it, you weren't some creative deviant player, you just failed at the game. The cognoscenti believe that this is some sort of rite of passage, but what it really is is simply not fun for the majority of players.
2 is the "choice" that Cataclysm brought us. Pre-Cata talent trees were fully locked-in -- I don't think I ever saw a raid spec with more than 1 free point. Cata trees occasionally offered 3 or 4 choices but they were irrelevant -- generally choosing between Crappy Utility Talent #1 or Crappy Utility Talent #2.
The biggest problem with the old talent tree system is that it is inherently non-extensible, and thus from a design standpoint it is broken on its face. If Blizzard changed
anything
, they ended up changing
everything
to balance it out. It was an untenable Herculean effort that I'm honestly surprised they perpetuated for this long.
The new talent trees (if that's even the right word anymore) may only offer six choices, but they are six
legitimate
choices. I get a pretty strong D&D vibe from this new system, choosing from a set of very powerful feats. This is a level of character customization that hasn't truly existed in WoW before. The old trees were the mere illusion of choice -- in the end, if you had half a brain you wound up with a tree exactly like every other player with half a brain would wind up with. The new talents, by contrast, are distinctive playstyle choices -- and they're truly
your
choices, not the ones the very nature of the PvE or PvP game forced upon you.
The other thing most players are not thinking about when complaining about the new talent system is looking down the road. "Hey, guess what guys, for patch 6.0 we came up with a boatload of awesome new talents, and now you'll get to pick one every 10 (or maybe even 5) levels." And with this new system, they can basically inject new decision points without touching the existing ones at all. The design team can now be creative without being saddled by the baggage of the old system's flawed design. I expect to see a
lot
of cool new abilities coming through the talent system in post-5.0 WoW.
The irony of players' tunneled perception is that this talent system revamp feels like homogenization when it's the exact opposite, and the old system feels like choice when it's really forced homogenization. You have to analyze it as a designer, not a player, to see just how brilliant the new system is.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Atik
Could you give me any examples as to why the old talent system requires more thought than the new one?
Because for every single level up you had to decide whih point would be best spent that level?
There was never any choice in the old talent trees, just the illusion thereof. Talents were either:
so painfully obvious you had to take them, or
so non-affective that the choice truly didn't matter.
GC gave the canonical example of 1 at Blizzcon with fury warrior's Raging Blow -- if you skipped it, you weren't some creative deviant player, you just failed at the game. The cognoscenti believe that this is some sort of rite of passage, but what it really is is simply not fun for the majority of players.
2 is the "choice" that Cataclysm brought us. Pre-Cata talent trees were fully locked-in -- I don't think I ever saw a raid spec with more than 1 free point. Cata trees occasionally offered 3 or 4 choices but they were irrelevant -- generally choosing between Crappy Utility Talent #1 or Crappy Utility Talent #2.
The biggest problem with the old talent tree system is that it is inherently non-extensible, and thus from a design standpoint it is broken on its face. If Blizzard changed
anything
, they ended up changing
everything
to balance it out. It was an untenable Herculean effort that I'm honestly surprised they perpetuated for this long.
The new talent trees (if that's even the right word anymore) may only offer six choices, but they are six
legitimate
choices. I get a pretty strong D&D vibe from this new system, choosing from a set of very powerful feats. This is a level of character customization that hasn't truly existed in WoW before. The old trees were the mere illusion of choice -- in the end, if you had half a brain you wound up with a tree exactly like every other player with half a brain would wind up with. The new talents, by contrast, are distinctive playstyle choices -- and they're truly
your
choices, not the ones the very nature of the PvE or PvP game forced upon you.
The other thing most players are not thinking about when complaining about the new talent system is looking down the road. "Hey, guess what guys, for patch 6.0 we came up with a boatload of awesome new talents, and now you'll get to pick one every 10 (or maybe even 5) levels." And with this new system, they can basically inject new decision points without touching the existing ones at all. The design team can now be creative without being saddled by the baggage of the old system's flawed design. I expect to see a
lot
of cool new abilities coming through the talent system in post-5.0 WoW.
The irony of players' tunneled perception is that this talent system revamp feels like homogenization when it's the exact opposite, and the old system feels like choice when it's really forced homogenization. You have to analyze it as a designer, not a player, to see just how brilliant the new system is.
But I
STILL
can't tank while dual wielding anymore.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Atik
No, their priority is killing unorthadox playstyles. They want everyone to play the game THEIR way.
The ruin the leveling process and make it rocket you to 85. People who enjoy leveling were apparently wrong to do so.
The go out of their way to repeatedly kill DW unholy, as they think it is the wrong way to play.
The kill Unholy and Frost tanks, as well as blood DPS, as those were wrong.
And the trend continues, with Blizzard going out of their way and doing everything in their power to kill any unorthadox style that becomes popular.
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