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The JP system SUCKS!
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Post by
Problimatic
I don't mind it. It takes barely any time to gear an alt with the JP system and once geared you can buy things like wrath gems to sell for gold. The dungeons themselves are only difficult the first couple weeks when everyonne is still learning the mechanics of everything, after then its pretty much the same faceroll that wrath was. (Slightly less faceroll since the average gear level is a bit lower in comparison to the dungeons in comparison to when lfd came out in wrath.)
Post by
367020
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
Well, I am normally a tank. But the thing is, tanking these heroics isn't fun.
Wrath was always fun for a tank. Massive chainpulls to the boss and all that.
The only dungeons you can chainpull in Cata are GB and Lost City, both of which are dreadfully unsatisfying.
Well, with a decently enough geared group everything can be chain-pulled. And besides, Wrath was a little too easy Dungeon/Heroic-wise.
that's the point, heroics are meant to be easy.
I dont mind if raids are super brutal and everything, but heroics are nothing more than a time-sink to get your pre-raiding gear ready. It shoudn't be as dificult as they've made it on cata. Jesus, before the nerfs, the first time I ran deadmines took
3 HOURS
and the first time i ran ZG took about the same time.
this is acceptable for a raid, but unaceptable for a 5man that SHOULD be just a time-sink to get the stuff needed to raid.
you dont see each daily quest taking up to 1 hour to complete with multiple wipes, why not? because they are just a time-sink to get gold so u can gem and chant your stuff.
Post by
Kurrem
1 - People that find Cataclysm heroic dungeons hard:
You run these dungeons (at heroic difficulty) to get MUCH better items than you have, thus hoping the dungeons will be easier with those newly acquired items. Maybe it is not your items that need to get better...
2 - People that say "i was tanking with my dps gear back in WOTLK":
You were tanking in a dungeon that had 187-200 ilvl drops, while you had 251-264 ilvl items. At the start of the expansion the dungeons were not easy while everyone had (tanks, healers and dps) quest greens. At the end of the expansion i saw a Moonkin, yes a MOONKIN, tanking; pretty good i might add without any aggro problem and pretty much chain pulling everything. Don't worry those days will come back when we hit the end of Cataclysm and we will read your whining about dps not waiting for tanks.
Post by
deathbyte
Well, I am normally a tank. But the thing is, tanking these heroics isn't fun.
Wrath was always fun for a tank. Massive chainpulls to the boss and all that.
The only dungeons you can chainpull in Cata are GB and Lost City, both of which are dreadfully unsatisfying.
Well, with a decently enough geared group everything can be chain-pulled. And besides, Wrath was a little too easy Dungeon/Heroic-wise.
that's the point, heroics are meant to be easy.
I dont mind if raids are super brutal and everything, but heroics are nothing more than a time-sink to get your pre-raiding gear ready. It shoudn't be as dificult as they've made it on cata. Jesus, before the nerfs, the first time I ran deadmines took
3 HOURS
and the first time i ran ZG took about the same time.
this is acceptable for a raid, but unaceptable for a 5man that SHOULD be just a time-sink to get the stuff needed to raid.
you dont see each daily quest taking up to 1 hour to complete with multiple wipes, why not? because they are just a time-sink to get gold so u can gem and chant your stuff.
Really? They wouldn't be called heroic then...
Post by
dragonrom
1) welcome to WoW.
2) if u want justice, you can do battlegrounds and switch the honor to justice. a bg will take up to about 30 minutes, and if you win you can get honor equal to about 250 or so justice, losing maybe more like 100-150 justice. most heroics will last a little over an hour and u get maybe 300 justice, compared to the 400-500 u could get from bgs. plus a bonus is that pvp is a bit more different, and can get pretty fun, compared to the extremely repetitive dungeons. if you are a dps, i would suggest pvp even more, as 30 minute dungeon queues suck horribly.... think of it, that 30 minute queue is a bg you just missed out on.
keep that in mind if the dungeon grind gets too boring for you.
and a final note: 371 honor pvp gear is going to be much better thank 90% of dps gear 359 and under. not the same for tank or healers, but dps can keep that in mind.
Post by
Atik
I never thought the easiness of Wrath was a bad thing...
It took the skill out of end-game stuff, which is always a bad thing. If something's too easy, then people will get what they want way too quickly, and it won't take long before it becomes a chour to do a heroic.
If a heroic is too hard and frustrating for you,
that's the whole point
. Heroics are supposed to be difficult, and if you're not skilled enough for them yet, then either keep trying and improve, or stick to normal dungeons.
People only improve by attempting things that are above their skill level.
You see, that is the thing. I'm not the one failing. Heroics aren't hard; they're stupid.
Things like Shatter, Blitz, the reflective shield, ect? They're not gear checks. They're idiot checks. When the only survivors of those mechanics are usually me and one DPS? The problem is made clear.
I'm sorry, but I'm not wiping on the first boss of Blackrock for an hour and a half because it is hard. I'm wiping because it is !@#$ing stupid.
Back in wrath, as a good tank, I could carry all but the most fail of groups. It made it fun for me.
Now, I get punished because of idiots who can't target a &*!@ing chain.
Post by
678294
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Trishi
Things like Shatter, Blitz, the reflective shield, ect? They're not gear checks. They're idiot checks. When the only survivors of those mechanics are usually me and one DPS? The problem is made clear.
I'm sorry, but I'm not wiping on the first boss of Blackrock for an hour and a half because it is hard. I'm wiping because it is !@#$ing stupid.
Back in wrath, as a good tank, I could carry all but the most fail of groups. It made it fun for me.
Now, I get punished because of idiots who can't target a &*!@ing chain.
They made them purposely like this. A dungeon is a group thing, meaning you do something with other people. Did you expect Blizzard to make them solo'able?
And I find it hillarious how you single out the chains in Blackrock Caverns. Sure you aren't forgetting to attack it yourself? I'd be more concerned with Grim Batol. That place got TONS of team reliant tactics. Invocations of Fire? For any tank but a DK tank, this will likely be impossible without help if you are the target - And healers are pretty helpless as well, likewise with most melee DPS. The first boss either requires you to outgear it horribly, or kite the purple mob away, something the tank can't do alone either. And Erudax? without proper use of tactics, that fight is impossible, even with insanely overgeared people.
Going past Heroics, we have
a certain boss
who is nigh impossible to control as a tank. As a Paladin, you have a few choices to assist your clueless teammates in surviving, but it wont be enough to get through the fight if the whole team is completely clueless.
Post by
Atik
They made them purposely like this. A dungeon is a group thing, meaning you do something with other people. Did you expect Blizzard to make them solo'able?
Not soloable, but it is at the point where I que up as tank expecting five hours of wiping.
And I find it hillarious how you single out the chains in Blackrock Caverns. Sure you aren't forgetting to attack it yourself? I'd be more concerned with Grim Batol. That place got TONS of team reliant tactics. Invocations of Fire? For any tank but a DK tank, this will likely be impossible without help if you are the target - And healers are pretty helpless as well, likewise with most melee DPS. The first boss either requires you to outgear it horribly, or kite the purple mob away, something the tank can't do alone either. And Erudax? without proper use of tactics, that fight is impossible, even with insanely overgeared people.
1. I have made it a point to skip the third boss in GB because of the adds. Unless the group is really good and wants to do it, I scoot by him.
2. Other than that? I missed your point. I chose an arbitrary example of a mechanic I have see wipe groups for an hour straight. Even if I do break them, it is rare for it to happen in time for anyone to run away.
Post by
Umega
I want the good gear now lol without grinding for days and weeks just to get decent points.
So if you did get the all the best gear, what would you do then? Reroll another character? WoW would get boring fast if everything was quick and easy.
Post by
Trishi
They made them purposely like this. A dungeon is a group thing, meaning you do something with other people. Did you expect Blizzard to make them solo'able?
Not soloable, but it is at the point where I que up as tank expecting five hours of wiping.
I have never experienced 5 hour long heroics. Not even 3 hours. Zandalari Heroics can take 2 hours at worst. If you take
this
long, might I suggest trying to advice people on the fight, instead of just Leeroying over and over again?
You can't blame PuGs for making runs take 5 hours. Even more so if it happens enough that you outright
expect
it to happen. I think you should review the possible reasons for these many wipes. The best way to figure out what a recurring issue is, is by looking at what aspects of the group that stays the same. And if you never run with guildees or friends, that quickly reduces the possible reasons to yourself.
I am mostly saying this because of personal experience. When I hit 85 with my Druid healer, I was struggling. We kept wiping, time and again, and it was getting really aggravating. I kept blaming insane difficulty and horrible pugs, until I finally gave up at a quite high itemlevel, and respecced into Feral DPS. Suddenly the runs went smoothly, and took, at worst, 1 hour. If it isn't obvious enough already, I'll come out and say it: I was the reason it took almost 2 hours for any heroic. Not the game. Not the class. Not the groups. And with my very well geared healer (Up towards 350 before I respecced), it wasn't the gear either. Blaming others is easy, but it doesn't solve the issue. Think about that.
Post by
Atik
I have never experienced 5 hour long heroics. Not even 3 hours
Then you are very lucky.
If you take this long, might I suggest trying to advice people on the fight, instead of just Leeroying over and over again?
I'll regularly spell out exactly what each member has to do, occasionally mid-fight.
You can't blame PuGs for making runs take 5 hours
I don't. I blame the dungeons.
I think you should review the possible reasons for these many wipes
1. People don't understand how to use the foe reaper machine
2. People don't burst the chains of woe down fast enough, or don't run fast enough after it is down.
3. Various other stupid mechanics. I'll take the blame when I shield slam and dispell the reflecting shield in Stonecore, or get caught with Static Cling. But when I type, say, "get in the triangle of lightning" mid-fight and the rest of the group sits there DPSing the boss, how am I to blame when they die?
The best way to figure out what a recurring issue is, is by looking at what aspects of the group that stays the same.
That would be the design of the dungeons.
And if you never run with guildees or friends, that quickly reduces the possible reasons to yourself.
Or the dungeons.
I'm also a warrior. Said warrior is my only 85. DPS runs, I never get caught by mechanics and consistently top recount, but there will be moments like Foe Reaper where I need to use the machine, and there isn't enough DPS left to kill the boss.
Tank runs, I do signi!@#ently better, but many times I'll end up with horribly braindead DPS or a healer that refuses to move for any reason. I don't blame gearing, I don't blame them, I blame Blizzard. I blame the fact I'm not able to carry a group. I blame the fact that mechanics assume I have intelligent guildies to run with, so they assume I can rely on some sort of teamwork.
Post by
446469
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Problimatic
For those arguing heroics are hard..... They really aren't. The other day I was already valor capped on my dk, saw the call to arms was up for tanking regular heroics, so I figure free loot. I zone into sfk, I ended up being twice the next highest dps as the tank. The group consisted of a ret paladin who didn't use crusader strike once, a marks hunter that didn't use a single aimed shot through the entire dungeon, or even chimera shot, an elemental shaman in agi gear, and a resto shaman that had some skill but was still in questing blues. With me tanking in my average 363 tanking gear since I don't raid anymore. Anywho, it took about an hour, but we went through with absolutely no wipes in there. I pulled 13k as the tank overall, next highest was the hunter at 6k, then shaman at 5k, ret pally around 4.5k. If we could clear the dungeon with that low of dps with no wipes, then I'm sure the average group can do a heck of a lot better. (A single decent dps pulling 20k pretty much beats the entire group dps "requirement" for all the fights, so provided your tank + healer don't suck, which even one of them can suck if the dps is actually decent, you shouldn't have any problems in the current heroics.)
Post by
Nathanyal
You can't blame PuGs for making runs take 5 hours
I don't. I blame the dungeons.
It isn't the dungeons fault braindead people play the game.
The best way to figure out what a recurring issue is, is by looking at what aspects of the group that stays the same.
That would be the design of the dungeons.
All of these dungeons have one thing in common, that people actually have to pay attention to what is happening instead of face-rolling through them.
And if you never run with guildees or friends, that quickly reduces the possible reasons to yourself.
Or the dungeons.
Its your fault you tend to do dungeons with pugs that are braindead.
The first weeks after cata launched these dungeons were hard. It wasn't until I did a guild run did I get SFK done at all. After that they started getting easier after getting better gear and getting more acquainted with the dungeons.
Now I doubt you will find many FL geared people running them as they don't need to. The few ones you do find will probably in a group with 2+ other guildies to help gear them and get guild rep.
One more thing. You can always drop group and take the debuff. I say a 30 minute wait to start another run is better then suffering through hours of a bad group. If you're tired of bad groups, get some good friends and run them.
Edited
Post by
446469
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Atik
If you're tired of bad groups, get some friends and run them.
...
Haven't I already addressed this a lot?
Post by
Nathanyal
If you're tired of bad groups, get some friends and run them.
...
Haven't I already addressed this a lot?
If you have I missed it. I went back and did a find on "guild" and friend" and the only mention of friend is in your sig.
You can't blame PuGs for making runs take 5 hours
I don't. I blame the dungeons.If you're tired of bad groups, get some friends and run them.
But thats the problem, the game forces socialization to succeed. There isn't alot of room for solo play. Its not a flaw though, but a game design. Though I think there is room for more solo activities, I wish Blizzard would explore it.
I don't see it as a problem. I play this so I can play with IRL friends that have moved away but I'd still like to keep in contact. There are plenty of options that aren't MMO that have solo play.
Yes there are few solo options in this game, I noticed that but I don't play online with others so I can go sit in the corner of a world and play alone.
Post by
Trishi
You can't blame PuGs for making runs take 5 hours
I don't. I blame the dungeons.If you're tired of bad groups, get some friends and run them.
But thats the problem, the game forces socialization to succeed.
No. It doesn't.
The game forces group play in few specific encounters. The only real encounter I can think of right now, is the aforementioned Bear boss from Zul'Aman, because it requires coordination of movement, and Erudax because it requires splitting up your damage dealers. Everything else just requires a minimum knowledge of tactics. Focusing on Invocations of fire doesn't require team coordination - it requires a bare minimum of knowledge about the fight.
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