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Moral Ambiguity (Grey Vs Grey) Vs Black Vs White Morality
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Post by
Adamsm
I know they do...and Sylvanas has reasons for her own grayness, which you do seem to ignore...a lot.
Edit: Hell Sold, Blizzard itself tells us that no Faction is actually a Black Hat; just as no faction is a White Hat either: They are all Gray.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
367020
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
gamerunknown
Considering I've been going over this argument with him, pointing out elements that show he doesn't know what he's talking about, and he continues to go on about it?
Yes, it's called having a discussion. He had sourced claims that actually negated your points. An argumentum ad hominem is never a valid way to argue. The proper course of action should one feel incapable of defending one's viewpoint is to bow out.
Post by
Adamsm
Considering I've been going over this argument with him, pointing out elements that show he doesn't know what he's talking about, and he continues to go on about it?
Yes, it's called having a discussion. He had sourced claims that actually negated your points. An argumentum ad hominem is never a valid way to argue. The proper course of action should one feel incapable of defending one's viewpoint is to bow out.
Not exactly; he hasn't really proven anything beyond his own take on the Lore: same as Tagra and I have done, and as I've said before I'm a true Sylvanas hater but even I can admit she has some gray within her....because again, right from Blizzard themselves, they've repeatedly said that none of the factions are evil.
Post by
367020
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Post by
588688
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Post by
Adamsm
in fact, in the RPG which I know is now cannon, it said that most forsaken are evil and mentally insane, and that though not all forsaken are evil, most of them are and their leadership is.Um...Sold, the RPG books are
non-canon
.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
You haven't won anything though Sold, it's merely your opinions on how you view the Lore. Blizzard itself has never said anywhere that one Faction is evil....because they'll never do that: Because they don't want people who like the Forsaken to be 'forced' into liking evil because of it.
And Sold, Blizzard came out a few months ago, and said that all information in the RPG books was non-canon; so if you are basing your entire argument on information that is not backed up by Blizzard well......
I originally stopped here because I felt like I was getting a headache from bashing my skull against a wall; same way I felt back when you first showed up and had a 'discussion'. Only thing that has changed from back then is that you don't insult people anymore.
Beyond that, expecting everything to be Black and White, with no Gray, makes things incredibly boring; that's probably one of the big reasons why I dislike Lord of the Rings so much, I just don't feel anything for any of the characters because to me they are completely two-dimensional.
As I've said here and in many threads in L&RP: I hate Sylvanas, and while I don't agree with the tactics she uses, it's still not a sign that she is a mustache twirling Black Hat.....
Because she isn't.
Post by
gamerunknown
Because they don't want people who like the Forsaken to be 'forced' into liking evil because of it.
This is just Blizzard being diplomatic and equivocating. Everyone has their preferred factions, but if one translates the actions to real scenarios they're indefensible.
And Blizzard has let players play explicitly evil factions in the past. The Orc campaign in WC1 was explicitly the evil one, no reference to corruption by demon's blood IIRC and only unlocked after one played through as the good guys. In WC3 one got to play Arthas... you aren't going to defend his actions are you? Killing humans in Lordaeron in order to raise them into mindless servants of one's cause while attempting to achieve hegemony in the region before finally dying and seeing only darkness? Sounds very unlikely anyone would possibly want to replicate that!
Post by
Adamsm
The difference is....those were RTS games as opposed to an MMO where a racial choice is meant to be equal to the others in regards to be good or evil? After all, if you really wanted to, you could put the same arguments that Sold has put forward to all of the factions and declare all of them just as evil as the Forsaken.
Post by
gamerunknown
Nobody is stopping you from doing so. I'm talking about the official capacity of faction leader here though, either condoning or perpetrating things that would be crimes in our universe.
Post by
367020
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Post by
Adamsm
Or, fall under the ideal of acceptable war tactics, as some of what the Forsaken do in Silverpine, Hillsbrad and Arathi can fall under that heading as well. Even for this, there is still no Black or White, because the quests were not programmed that way; they were meant to have shades of Gray all through out them....same as everything else involving the factions within the Warcraft universe.
Edit: And Tagra put it very well as well.
So, to sum it up: Even if people think otherwise, there is no Black or White in the Warcraft universe when it comes to the Factions.
Post by
gamerunknown
Well, fine. Things that would be considered either crimes in the US or war crimes under the Geneva Convention.
There's no point in arguing that the Forsaken are evil against someone that doesn't believe in the categorical existence of evil.
Post by
367020
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Post by
Adamsm
Well, fine. Things that would be considered either crimes in the US or war crimes under the Geneva Convention.
There's no point in arguing that the Forsaken are evil against someone that doesn't believe in the categorical existence of evil.
*shrug* I believe there is evil, and things can be evil. The Forsaken simply aren't evil; they're grey.
^ This, as you can't stamp an evil label on everything about a certain race.....wasn't that was done to Germany after the Second World War, to everyone whether they were part of the party or not?
Post by
588688
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Post by
Adamsm
http://www.wowpedia.org/Theresa
Ya this is totally grey, you think this is ok taragnar and adamsm? The entire point is that forsaken are guilty of far, far, far more evil actions than any other race. There are more evil forsaken than there are good. They don't need to do the evil things they do, they do it because they don't care about morality, that makes them evil. If they had to do something bad because they had to for their own good, that'd be grey. But stuff like Theresa isn't grey. You and taragnar still haven't countered my arguments, I think you guys just don't find those things evil at all, which is disturbing.And one Forsaken does not mean all of them are evil: You seem fine with painting everything with the Evil brush, so you really shouldn't be allowed to get angry if someone does it to a character you enjoy, such as Varian or Genn. However, the main thing here is your own bias Sold.
But I'm sure if someone did something like that to someone you care about, you'd find it evil.Well no kidding Sherlock.
Anyway, I disagree on black and white stories with no grey being boring, I don't get interest from grey characters for some reason. I just don't like them, they personally never really peak interest in me, they only irritate me and make me uncomfortable.
Moral Disonnance maybe.
And the pure White and Black characters are lame to the extreme, with a few exceptions: Voldemort is a great pure Black Hat, but even some of the Death Eaters can fall into the Gray territory as well.
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