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A student's prayer.
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Post by
238331
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Then go find a secluded place where you can make the rules without any other people to cramp your style or beliefs.
What? Why?
I feel like you misunderstood me...
Because if you can't even have common courtesy for others, what is the point of living among them? Since that's more or less what the golden and silver rules are about, whether you belief in something or not.
You don't mean maxim do you?Er yeah....I'm bad with words heh.
Post by
Atik
Because if you can't even have common courtesy for others, what is the point of living among them? Since that's more or less what the golden and silver rules are about, whether you belief in something or not.
Because I only follow the basic rules of the area in which I live or am at the time. There is no reason for me to follow either of those rules, as I don't believe in what I read in books.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
On the topic of aggressive atheists: I seem to have accidentally ended up as one of the more forthright pro-religion types on this board, despite being an atheist myself.
You don't have to believe something to be of the opinion that other people have the right to believe it. I don't follow any particular religion (although I wouldn't say I'm an atheist), and i support freedom of religion and recognize that it has done and can do a lot of good for people. My opinion on this topic is specifically because I think that the students have the right to not have to sit through a curiculum that tells them their beliefs are wrong, or makes them feel singled out for not being of the majority opinion.
Post by
204878
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Because if you can't even have common courtesy for others, what is the point of living among them? Since that's more or less what the golden and silver rules are about, whether you belief in something or not.
Because I only follow the basic rules of the area in which I live or am at the time. There is no reason for me to follow either of those rules, as I don't believe in what I read in books.
........But you do believe things you see on TV are real eh? Like Ghosthunters?
And if you don't believe in things that you read in books, how could you pass any classes in school? Or did you treat things like history, math, and geography like story tales?
Alright, snarking aside: Whether the Golden/Silver rule came from the Bible or not, they are still about common courtesy anyways, and being a $%^& to other people just because they are #$%^s to you, is a pretty $%^&ty way to live your life.
Post by
Atik
And if you don't believe in things that you read in books, how could you pass any classes in school? Or did you treat things like history, math, and geography like story tales?
Admittedly, I phrased that poorly.
"I do not believe things just because a 'holy' book says them."
Better?
Whether the Golden/Silver rule came from the Bible or not, they are still about common courtesy anyways, and being a $%^& to other people just because they are #$%^s to you, is a pretty $%^&ty way to live your life.
And? It's the way I choose to live my life.
Post by
Adamsm
Whether the Golden/Silver rule came from the Bible or not, they are still about common courtesy anyways, and being a $%^& to other people just because they are #$%^s to you, is a pretty $%^&ty way to live your life.
And? It's the way I choose to live my life.
Then I really doubt you are going to go anywhere.
Post by
xaratherus
From personal experience - and it's anecdotal only - I believe that for every instance of a student having his religious rights "blocked" or unfairly infringed-upon there are five other cases where nothing ever happens.
As an example: I grew up in a small rural school system in southern Indiana, and was a member of my high school's choir. We had two choirs - concert choir and "swing" choir. The latter required auditions to join.
Part of the requirements for the swing choir was a willingness to perform a Christian-based repertoire of music; for 80% of the school year, we went to a different church every Sunday and performed classical and contemporary Christian songs.
In contrast, the concert choir had open membership, limited performances, and a purely secular repertoire of music
This continues today. And despite the fact that I'm an agnostic-atheist, I don't really have a problem with it. I enjoyed the music for the music's sake, even if (increasingly toward the end of my time in high school) I thought the lyrical content of the music was questionable.
And so my experience, limited though it is, leads me to believe that the legal "persecution" for religious practices in schools is the exception and not the rule.
Admittedly, I phrased that poorly.
"I do not believe things just because a 'holy' book says them."
To automatically disbelieve them just because a holy book says them is just as foolish. I recognize the moral worth of some of the Bible's parables, even if I happen to think that those parables came from men and not from any divine source.
Post by
Magician22773
After a little closer review of the article, and several others about the same incident, the students were assembling in a common area (cafeteria). The students also had asked permission, but were told to go pray outside....in Washington State....in the winter. They were also denied a private classroom, because they were not an official school group. It was also 7am, a full hour before classes began, so one could assume that the common area wasn't "packed" with kids, and no one was being made late for class.
Proof?
I can't "prove" anything to you. But common sense would seem to "prove" that the schools reasoning was pretty flawed, if their real concern was this group was disrupting traffic.
@ DoctorLore
The premise of Matthew 6:5 is not to condem prayer in public, but to condem praying as a means to impress others. If you pray to be heard by men, than your recognition shall be that from man, If you pray to be heard by God, than your reward shall be from Him.
The verse is meant to show that you should not use God to draw attention to yourself, but you yourself should draw attention to God.
Post by
Atik
To automatically disbelieve them just because a holy book says them is just as foolish.
I don't. I automatically disbelieve it because it is religion. Religion was origonally created in an attempt to explain the way the world works, as humans lacked technology or understanding of such.
To simply believe that one religion actually got it right, while all the others missed? It doesn't make sense to me how people can. I don't understand how people of such a modern world can still hold onto their aligator gods and cloud men who we have no further need for.
I can't "prove" anything to you. But common sense would seem to "prove" that the schools reasoning was pretty flawed, if their real concern was this group was disrupting traffic.
Common sense to me says that the students were actually punks trying to get the school in trouble
Post by
Adamsm
To automatically disbelieve them just because a holy book says them is just as foolish.
I don't. I automatically disbelieve it because it is religion. Religion was origonally created in an attempt to explain the way the world works, as humans lacked technology or understanding of such.
To simply believe that one religion actually got it right, while all the others missed? It doesn't make sense to me how people can. I don't understand how people of such a modern world can still hold onto their aligator gods and cloud men who we have no further need for.
In your eyes of course; and I don't understand how a 'person of the modern world' can be so closed minded even when science admits that there are things that they still can't explain.
But you still skated around the fact that nearly all cultures have come up with the 'Do unto others what you would have them do unto you' ideal within them. Seems like that is meant to be a basic tenant of life, and just disbelieving in it because one religion ties it into their holy book, is the sign of a very narrow mind.
I can't "prove" anything to you. But common sense would seem to "prove" that the schools reasoning was pretty flawed, if their real concern was this group was disrupting traffic.
Common sense to me says that the students were actually punks trying to get the school in trouble
Because that's what you would do right? /roll eyes
Post by
xaratherus
I don't. I automatically disbelieve it because it is religion.
The same still holds true; changing the reason why you discard something out-of-hand as incorrect, without actually reviewing what it said, makes you look just as much an idiot.
A broken clock still tells the right time twice a day; an ass can still answer a question correctly, it just depends on the question ("What sound does a donkey make?").
To simply believe that one religion actually got it right, while all the others missed?
The Golden and Silver rules exist in various forms through at least five different religious and moral philosophies. For example, the earliest record we actually have of the Golden Rule stems from Confucianism. It can also be found in Christianity, in Wicca, in Hinduism, in the writings of a number of secular humanists.
To disregard something a religion proposes simply because a religion proposed it is just as foolish as you consider those religions to be in the first place.
Post by
238331
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Atik
In your eyes of course; and I don't understand how a 'person of the modern world' can be so closed minded even when science admits that there are things that they still can't explain.
Because Science marches on and continues to bring things to light. Religion stays in the past, where it belongs.
But you still skated around the fact that nearly all cultures have come up with the 'Do unto others what you would have them do unto' ideal within them. Seems like that is meant to be a basic tenant of life, and just disbelieving in it because one religion ties it into their holy book, is the sign of a very narrow mind.
Nearly every religion ties it to their beliefs somehow.
I don't not believe it. I simply choose not to do it.
Because that's what you would do right? /roll eyes
No, because christians are supposed to be good hearted and respectful of authority.
Post by
xaratherus
Care to provide articles with these details?
This
is the one I found. The details aren't matching up with what Magician reported, though. In this story, the students were offered the chance to pray in a private classroom space and refused, because they hoped by praying in public they would get others to join in.
The only mention of them praying outside was a prayer meeting that voluntarily occurred
after
the students were suspended for refusing to clear the common area.
In other words, the faculty felt they constituted a possible traffic problem; the students were offered a way to continue their prayers in a private setting and they refused. They were then suspended because they refused to follow the directions of the faculty.
If the school had not attempted to accommodate the students, then there would be a question of religious freedoms. But that's not the case according to the article I'm reading.
Post by
Magician22773
Care to provide articles with these details?
Just Google "12 Washington students suspended for prayer"
There are a number of articles written on this incident, and each one has bits and pieces from which my post was made. Nearly all the articles state that the group was in a common area or cafeteria. A couple others mentioned the time. Others pointed out they had been meeting outside, but asked permission to meet inside due to weather and were denied.
I even tried to be somewhat unbiased in this, looking for articles that were both from typical news sources as well as the ones from Christian publications. I was also starting to be inclined to agree that disruption could have played a part in the schools decision if this group had been held in a hallway. After realizing that it was being held in a commons area, I will stick to my original ideology.
"According to the group’s statement, the affected students had met together a few weeks ago to initiate a school prayer club. They were refused by the school’s vice principal, Alex Otoupal, who explained that they could not meet in a private room." "The prayer group was instructed by the vice principal to go and pray outside rather than in the cafeteria. The students persisted in praying in the lunch room, however, because of the inclement weather outside. As a result, they were suspended for ten days."
source
Post by
ElhonnaDS
"It is absolutely outrageous that the school allowed one Satanist student to exercise a heckler’s veto over the other students’ speech," said Anita L. Staver, Liberty Counsel president. "Most of the students who were suspended are immigrants from Russia. We must show them that America is still the land of the free. School officials must immediately reverse the suspensions."
That's cute. Pagan = Satanist. I love it whent hey find uninformed people to comment on news stories.
Post by
xaratherus
Let me synthesize what I think is the most likely story:
A group of 12 students wanted to form a public prayer meeting. They specifically wanted this to be a
public
prayer group so that random other people could join in as they felt like it.*
A few students (one of whom was apparently a "pagan") complained about the group meeting in the commons area. They were told by the faculty to disburse.
The praying students approached the vice principal about forming an official prayer group. The vice principal informed them that they could form a prayer group, but they would need a sponsor, and they'd have to meet in a private classroom. Because this went against what they wanted - a public prayer group - the students declined.
When the students went ahead praying in the commons area, the faculty told them they were in violation of school policy and if they wanted to continue to meet in public to pray, they'd have to meet outside the school. The students decided to continue meeting inside the school because of the weather, and were suspended because they had been repeatedly told that they could not meet in the commons area.
What I see here is a school offering sufficient facilities for a group of students who wanted to pray, but who seemed to have refused to do so because they wanted to pray in public (by their own admission) so other people could join in; when they refused to acquiesce to the school's policies, they were suspended.
Just as an aside, I automatically have to question the "unbiased" nature of a news article when most of the articles I'm finding refer to the complaint coming from a "pagan", while this one says it was a "Satanist" (when the two terms aren't interchangeable).
*A member of the prayer group says as much in her quotes in the story in the story I linked; they didn't want to meet in private because they wanted people to be able to join.
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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