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Oldest fossils on Earth found in Australia, provides proof of life on planet 3.4 billion years ago
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Post by
127599
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
...the kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed which…is the least of all seeds, but when it is grown is the greatest among herbs and becometh a tree."
1. There are seeds smaller than mustard seeds
2. Mustard doesn't grow into a tree
The word "seeds" there is actually the greek word "σπέρμα" in the bible, which translates into something that sown. I wonder if mustard seeds at the time that passage was written were the smallest seed intentionally sown by people who were hearing the words that were being spoken here.
The word "tree" used here is "δένδρον" pronounced "dendron", think rhododendran. It's root word comes from "δρύς" which means "oak", however this doesn't directly translate into a "tree".
What this verse is NOT saying is that mustard seeds are the smallest seeds of ALL TIME, and that they grow into a GIANT REDWOOD.
Semantics arguments are fun, tedious, and generally pointless. If you really really want to find a semantical fictional argument in the Bible, there are loads in Psalms. Try Psalms 18:42. Does it really mean to bless a "rock"? I think not.
Back to the thread topic: this entire topic has devolved into an argument about how fossils disprove the Bible. The same argument has been made using the light from distant stars, and the radiation content of lead rocks.
One argument so called Christians use to argue that the Earth is still only about 6K years old is that the evidence was placed by God to test us. More importantly, non-Christians use this point to mock Christians.
I offer a close, but slightly different viewpoint:
When Adam was created on earth, I doubt he was created as a sperm and an egg, floating in air, then growing into a person. It seems more likely that he was created as a human being, capable of abstract thought, and self locomotion. I don't know for certain, but it seems most likely that Adam was created at his most ideal "age" for survival. If that is true, God would have given Adam hair, and toe nails, and teeth, etc... One day after Adam were created, he was one day old, but he would look quite a bit older. If one of us could see him at one day old, we could point to his hair, and say it would take longer than a day for that hair to grow, thus he must be older than a day. The appropriate response wouldn't be that the hair was placed there to "test" us. That doesn't make sense. The hair was placed there because that was a mature human that God created, one day ago.
God didn't place light traveling through the universe from long dead stars to test us, or place bones in the dirt to measure our resolve in our faith. He placed those there because that is what a perfectly aged universe looks like. Similarly, he didn't leave the dark side of the moon unformed, or fill the earth with styrafoam peanuts, or any other "shortcut" to making a complete and perfect universe.
Is this definitely how and why God created the Universe? I don't know. I'm only presenting this possibly to say that the Bible is still possibly true. These fossils don't disprove anything. No scientific evidence gather-able could offer empirical evidence against the Bible.
Do I think that the fossils belong to anything that has lived in the last million years? No. Do I think the Earth is older than about 6K years? No.
Post by
Jubilee
I think you may be confusing evidence with proof. Science provides plenty of evidence that the earth older that 6000 years. What it does not do is give us a proof, because science can never do that with anything. Even in regards to your example of Adam's hair, that is also in fact
evidence
that Adam was not created a day ago, because it is in the nature of hair to grow over time. It's not a proof, but it's still evidence. in your case you're choosing to disregard that evidence (the hair, the dating of the fossils, and so forth) in favor of what you see as stronger evidence, namely the biblical account.
Post by
Adamsm
Adam was built from the mud of the Earth as an adult male wasn't he? And Eve was formed the same way, but with the addition of one of his ribs.
And it's not just the Christians, there are lots of religions that do take in account of the fossil records, but most of them say they were created by the Flood; and that can cover anything from the dinosaurs to the mythical creatures such as Minotaurs, Centaurs and the rest.
Post by
606231
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Well the Flood or some other form of massive destructive force happening at some point.
Post by
xaratherus
Lots? I thought it would only be Judaism, Islam and Christianity (and all the different sects within those 3)?
There are numerous religions that recount a catastrophic flood. See
here
.
Post by
Skreeran
Lots? I thought it would only be Judaism, Islam and Christianity (and all the different sects within those 3)?
There are numerous religions that recount a catastrophic flood. See
here
.From what I've read, it's commonly believed that those are the result of a massive flood of a river in Mesopotamia that has engrained itself into human history.
Post by
xaratherus
Lots? I thought it would only be Judaism, Islam and Christianity (and all the different sects within those 3)?
There are numerous religions that recount a catastrophic flood. See
here
.From what I've read, it's commonly believed that those are the result of a massive flood of a river in Mesopotamia that has engrained itself into human history.
That's the most common explanation that I've heard as well. In the eyes of the people living at that time, the whole world was flooded - because their world
was
that valley.
I just thought I'd point out that there are more religions than the Abrahamic ones that mention a flood.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
I think you may be confusing evidence with proof. Science provides plenty of evidence that the earth older that 6000 years. What it does not do is give us a proof, because science can never do that with anything. Even in regards to your example of Adam's hair, that is also in fact
evidence
that Adam was not created a day ago, because it is in the nature of hair to grow over time. It's not a proof, but it's still evidence. in your case you're choosing to disregard that evidence (the hair, the dating of the fossils, and so forth) in favor of what you see as stronger evidence, namely the biblical account.
I buy that, but it doesn't change my point.
Post by
MyTie
I know a number of Christians who believe the time periods given in the old testament were metaphorical. They believe that when writing for a population who had very little concept of math or science, things would have to be expressed in terms they could understand. To try to calculate the age of the earth based on it taking 7 days to create the Earth, when there is so much scientific evidence of how much older the earth is, seems less believable to them than the idea that in a book where metaphor is used constantly to make points relatable to the audience, this was just one more instance.
They're the same people who consider the oceans and the earth "bringing forth" animal and plant life to be very vague, and in no way contrary to the idea that the process by which that was achieved was evolution. After all, we can today observe the process by which clouds form, and rain occurs. Does the fact that God did it (according to the Bible) during the great flood mean that the science explaining percipitation cycles a lie? Or is it possible that, if God exists and created everything, he might have used observable processes rather than go "poof".
TL:DR version of Elhonna is: Could the Bible's account of creation be metaphor?
TL:DR version of MyTie's response is: Not without endangering the whole Biblical understanding to metaphor.
The Bible does use a lot of metaphor, such as God being a "rock", as I pointed out earlier, and Jesus being a "lamb". But, He was also very specific in most cases where it wasn't abundantly apparent that metaphor was being used. You were told to make your robe out of a certain kind of metal, or not to eat a certain kind of meat, and you had better friggin do it. God didn't mess around. God also chose his method of conveying His words and history to us, and that was through writing. Those writings were collected and put into a book we know as the "Bible". I do not accept that an all knowing, all perfect being would create all the known universe and all beyond our current understanding, and be extremely specific about the creation of the universe, and convey it in such a flawed and imperfect manner that it is completely garbled or metaphorical within 8K years.
If God, an all mighty being, choose a specific person to write down specific words, and specified those words to be carried down through the generations forever, and those specific words, which we can still read today, specifically said that the entire universe was spoken into existence in 6 days, then
the universe took 6 days to create.
To erode that, is to erode the foundation of the Bible, and Christianity itself. What if the whole creation were metaphorical? Then can't God be a metaphor for morality? Can't the resurrection of Jesus be a metaphor for the value of placing your life in firm and selfless morals? You cannot build a house on a metaphorical foundation.
Post by
Samerius
Sure we can all write down fancy words trying to explain how everything was created and if we exist.
The truth is that we will never know how we got created and what this world is, i'm an atheist and I don't believe in God, but I will never know.
Nobody alive today will ever know the truth, makes me both sad and happy. What wonders can we not see? It's amazing if you think about it...
You can all sit and discuss forever but the truth is, nobody knows...
Religion only help people who "need" to know, they can't embrace the fact that we will never know.
Post by
606231
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
OverZealous
Sure we can all write down fancy words trying to explain how everything was created and if we exist.
The truth is that we will never know how we got created and what this world is, i'm an atheist and I don't believe in God, but I will never know.
Nobody alive today will ever know the truth, makes me both sad and happy. What wonders can we not see? It's amazing if you think about it...
You can all sit and discuss forever but the truth is, nobody knows...
Religion only help people who "need" to know, they can't embrace the fact that we will never know.
That's a pretty sad way to look at it - we've come a long way in the last few years, and we know a lot more of how the universe was created now than we did in year 1911, for example. Saying that we will never know is... stupid, to be frank, since many people have made it their lives' tasks to find know, and determination takes you a long way.
Post by
Jubilee
If God, an all mighty being, choose a specific person to write down specific words, and specified those words to be carried down through the generations forever, and those specific words, which we can still read today, specifically said that the entire universe was spoken into existence in 6 days, then
the universe took 6 days to create.
Not to appear rude, but that sounds extremely presumptuous. I would think that a God who is more powerful and knows more than you or I ever will could do things for whatever reason he chose. This is exactly the issue that I have with so many Christians, and it's most likely the main reason I'd never become one; they all seem to
know
so much. I could never be that way. I look at the world as a whole beautiful pile of ifs and maybes. Maybe the earth was created in 6 days, maybe it wasn't. I embrace both possibilities, and I can think about how both might effect me as a person.
Post by
Samerius
Sure we can all write down fancy words trying to explain how everything was created and if we exist.
The truth is that we will never know how we got created and what this world is, i'm an atheist and I don't believe in God, but I will never know.
Nobody alive today will ever know the truth, makes me both sad and happy. What wonders can we not see? It's amazing if you think about it...
You can all sit and discuss forever but the truth is, nobody knows...
Religion only help people who "need" to know, they can't embrace the fact that we will never know.
That's a pretty sad way to look at it - we've come a long way in the last few years, and we know a lot more of how the universe was created now than we did in year 1911, for example. Saying that we will never know is... stupid, to be frank, since many people have made it their lives' tasks to find know, and determination takes you a long way.
We that are alive now will never know, future generations will know.
Post by
606231
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
If God, an all mighty being, choose a specific person to write down specific words, and specified those words to be carried down through the generations forever, and those specific words, which we can still read today, specifically said that the entire universe was spoken into existence in 6 days, then
the universe took 6 days to create.
Not to appear rude, but that sounds extremely presumptuous. I would think that a God who is more powerful and knows more than you or I ever will could do things for whatever reason he chose. This is exactly the issue that I have with so many Christians, and it's most likely the main reason I'd never become one; they all seem to
know
so much. I could never be that way. I look at the world as a whole beautiful pile of ifs and maybes. Maybe the earth was created in 6 days, maybe it wasn't. I embrace both possibilities, and I can think about how both might effect me as a person.
Part of being a Christian, a true Christian, is accepting of what God says. He said it, I believe it. I base my life, morals, and ethics on that understanding. I definitely do not personally know much beyond that. In the grand scheme of things, I really don't know or understand much. It's nice to be able to put trust in God and gain the knowledge that He gives. Do I know how the universe was created? Not beyond what I'm told. I'm also not afraid to say "I don't know", as I did on this very page:Is this definitely how and why God created the Universe? I don't know.
Post by
MyTie
We that are alive now will never know, future generations will know.
We could find the secret of eternal life in the next decade
;)
We've actually known this for a very long time: John 14:6
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