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Everyone should tank like a Blood DK......wait?
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Post by
Craziedwarrior
I have a frost DK that I use for pvp and raiding. I do use blood spec and tank some dungeons every once and a while but for the most part I use him for frost. I have a warrior that i mostly tank with. My warrior tank does better in raids and the harder dungeons fights. When I was blood I felt like I was always the weakest part of the group. Now I read in the new patch notes that ghost and blizz want all tanks to be more like blood tanks and death strike. Iam not a big fan of this idea but, ok, whatever. My question is this. If Blood has all this issues (someone posts about them twice daily) then why is blizz making tanking around that model. I dont want to care about my hit points I want to focus on the boss. I dont want a huge self heal I want to dodge and parry and make the healers work some. Maybe this isn't a question for the DKs but I did want to hear what Blood DKs had to say about it.
Post by
Orranis
Because Blizzard refuses to listen to problems that prominent community members have been posting about since Beta, and they only continue to grow worse.
Taking other tanks down to our level would actually be beneficial, as encounters would be tuned around it, but that doesn't change the fact that Rune Tetris is just not fun. If we start on Heroic Modes, I'm probably going to switch to DPS.
Post by
144586
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
jynxycat
They want tanks to have to maybe manage a resource instead of just hit buttons.
Dks already do, and maybe something similar with rage or holy power.
They don't necessary want them all to shield and heal -.-
Post by
DraconisAerius
They want tanks to have to maybe manage a resource instead of just hit buttons.
Dks already do, and maybe something similar with rage or holy power.
They don't necessary want them all to shield and heal -.-
Then why are they making it that way? Go read GC's latest Dev Watercooler post and see what he says about Warriors and their rage and cd's and so on. They are dumbing it down alot, already I know at the very least Bears and Pallys have self healing, and, if well managed, a Pally tank could probably match a poor to average performing Blood tank in self healing.
Post by
379034
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
JASP01
I have no issues whatsoever as a Blood DK. Rune CD's are almost never a problem with Blood Tap+the rare Runic Empowerment.
I actually prefer tanking as a Blood DK. Blood Shield is just great, I can heal myself with Death Coil in a pinch, and even though aggro is now becoming a *slight* problem, Dancing Rune Weapon fixes that.
However, if they are going to make all tanks similar... That's a bad idea. Why not make all dps the same? I mean, besides the fact that most have a 5 button rotation, some form of Blood Lust (remember when that was class-specific?), some form of pet, some form of self-healing (Rogues and Warriors can heal? What?), and Mastery as a #1 or 2 stat. There are exceptions, of course. Warriors, Rogues, and Druids don't have pets (every other class still does). Mages can't heal. And BL isn't on -every- class yet. But... Look, my point is, I play a tank because it is hard, situational, and there is no set rotation. If I need to heal, Death Strike. Mitigation, and either Outbreak+Pest, or Plague Strike+Icy Touch+Pest. Threat, and Heart Strike, Rune Strike, DnD, Blood Boil (now seems to work better) etc. What I mean is, it's more on what I need, not what's next on my list.
To anyone that believes all tanks should be easy... They got rid of 696 for a reason.
To anyone that believes Blood DKs are lackluster, look up Raegwyn.
To anyone that believes all tanks should be the same, there's more than "I want to start at a high level" for me choosing to be a Death Knight.
Post by
Badaccus
Mages can't heal. Druids don't have pets.
Charred Glyph
would like to have a word with you.
too. Other than that, I agree with most you said. At 80 i actually had a /castsequence macro i used for farming heroics with my paladin, and BOY was that fun. No, it wasn't, and I'm glad they fixed it.
Post by
Orranis
I do love my Blood DK, but all classes should be different. I believe in "Bring the player, not the class," but that doesn't mean all classes should be identical. What's the point in taking the careful consideration of choosing a class, then?
Class balance comes far before anti-homogenization arguments. It's all fine and well that classes our different, but there is an ongoing problem where guilds doing Heroic Fireland's are actively dropping long-time DK tanks for other classes. Prominent members of the DK Tanking community are switching, Communism plays a Prot Warrior, Eflow and Euliat switched to DPS, etc.
Then why are they making it that way? Go read GC's latest Dev Watercooler post and see what he says about Warriors and their rage and cd's and so on. They are dumbing it down alot, already I know at the very least Bears and Pallys have self healing, and, if well managed, a Pally tank could probably match a poor to average performing Blood tank in self healing.
An extremely good Paladin might be able to outheal an AFK Blood DK. However, the fact remains that a Paladin, especially a block-capped one, remains the highest EH tank in game, with tons of mitigation as well. If they relied on heals that much they'd be much weaker.
blood DKs are definitely not weak. we have some issues same as all other classes, but we have some very unique CD abilities that makes up for it like anti magic shell and vampire blood both on a short CD. this makes us great tanks especialy for fights where the amount of damage we tage comes in spikes like shannox after his dogs dies we will be able to keep some kinda CD up lasting rest of the fight.
and no pallies can in no way heal/absorb the same as DKs, not if we are taking any kind of serius damage atleast.
but as to the subject i dont think it should be a goal to make classes more the same. its just Blizzard who think its easier to balance classes and events that way.
You have it more wrong than I could possibly imagine.
We are
on par
with other tanks on slow, weak hitting bosses. This doesn't show up in the normal 10 raids, as you will be hit for such a weak amount that if any good tank dies it's primarily to healer fault. However, in N 25, H 10, H25, damage is much more violent, and tanks are in constant danger of getting two-shot. Here plays out the difference between DK tanking and block tanking: You will not have a Blood Shield up for every two hits, a ctc capped Paladin will block or avoid every hit, a warrior should be able to take out at least one. DK's coming to that point, or even with Death Strike up and then missing, get destroyed. We are at our worst point when spike damage is high, because even on none-spike bosses our spike damage is high, and that extra bit really pushes us over the edge. We have the weakest health, the weakest armor, and our block mechanic provides zero effective health.
I have no issues whatsoever as a Blood DK. Rune CD's are almost never a problem with Blood Tap+the rare Runic Empowerment.
I actually prefer tanking as a Blood DK. Blood Shield is just great, I can heal myself with Death Coil in a pinch, and even though aggro is now becoming a *slight* problem, Dancing Rune Weapon fixes that.
However, if they are going to make all tanks similar... That's a bad idea. Why not make all dps the same? I mean, besides the fact that most have a 5 button rotation, some form of Blood Lust (remember when that was class-specific?), some form of pet, some form of self-healing (Rogues and Warriors can heal? What?), and Mastery as a #1 or 2 stat. There are exceptions, of course. Warriors, Rogues, and Druids don't have pets (every other class still does). Mages can't heal. And BL isn't on -every- class yet. But... Look, my point is, I play a tank because it is hard, situational, and there is no set rotation. If I need to heal, Death Strike. Mitigation, and either Outbreak+Pest, or Plague Strike+Icy Touch+Pest. Threat, and Heart Strike, Rune Strike, DnD, Blood Boil (now seems to work better) etc. What I mean is, it's more on what I need, not what's next on my list.
That's not how it works in raids. In raids, you need mitigation. If you're not Death Striking, you're setting up your next Death Strike.
To anyone that believes all tanks should be easy... They got rid of 696 for a reason.
To anyone that believes Blood DKs are lackluster, look up Raegwyn.
To anyone that believes all tanks should be the same, there's more than "I want to start at a high level" for me choosing to be a Death Knight.
Raegwyn is soloing outdated content that has absolutely no relevancy to current tier raiding. DK's are not a 'hard' class, they are a class that gets 2-shot. That's what people are complaining about. Rune tetris is not fun either, and while it does make it hard, it does so in an unintended way that is non-situational and simply annoying and distracting from fight mechanics.
Post by
Doring
Just another stupid idea from a company that is getting more and more out of touch with the reality of the player base and the reality of game mechanics.
You could death strike every single GCD (not possible with rune tetris but still, even if you could) in best in slot gear from head to toe with the perfect spec and time everything perfectly and still not generate the EH that a Paladin can. Warriors are a little better but still lag a good bit behind Pallies. The block mechanics simply scale too well and are too good to match and the fights are tuned for that. You can have champion healers dropping their largest heals on you nearly every GCD and you are still going to eat dirt in the big fights.
The class is behind in the big fights. You can tune the class or tune the fights because heaven knows that Blizzard isn't going to adjust Pallies, block mechanics and the fights to even things out. So, what's Blizzard's response, lets consider @#$%ing up all tanking because we don't think it's "interesting" enough. Go go Blizzard idiocy.
Post by
DraconisAerius
Then why are they making it that way? Go read GC's latest Dev Watercooler post and see what he says about Warriors and their rage and cd's and so on. They are dumbing it down alot, already I know at the very least Bears and Pallys have self healing, and, if well managed, a Pally tank could probably match a poor to average performing Blood tank in self healing.
An extremely good Paladin might be able to outheal an AFK Blood DK. However, the fact remains that a Paladin, especially a block-capped one, remains the highest EH tank in game, with tons of mitigation as well. If they relied on heals that much they'd be much weaker.
All I'm saying is they gain Holy Power from attacking, which they can use to self heal with Word of Glory. Which strikes me as being very similar to healing from Death Strike (in that you get healed because you are attacking). I'm being simplistic in my view here, but whatev's. Here's another example, I pop VB, then ghoul, DP and RT, that heals me to full from basically nothing. They pop Lay on Hands, the end. imo while both classes go about self healing in different ways, they both have strong self healing tools, and one could argue either way as to which is better, personally I prefer blood over prot, and think that blood is superior. Really all I'm saying is prot pally's, other than the shield, are not massively different from us, if (and only if) you really strip things back to the most simplistic level of looking at it.
Post by
724197
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
kodikun
(remember when that was class-specific?)
Buddy, I remember when that was faction specific.
Post by
DraconisAerius
I've heard lots of people saying that Druid tanking is broken atm, even some very good Druid tanks agree that it's not optimal. But if you go watch Paragon's world first heroic Rag kill you'll see a Druid tanking it. So it's not the class, or the spec, it's how good you are at it. I've no doubt there are pleanty of very good DK tanks that have no problems with Heroic Firelands at all.
Post by
Problimatic
I've heard lots of people saying that Druid tanking is broken atm, even some very good Druid tanks agree that it's not optimal. But if you go watch Paragon's world first heroic Rag kill you'll see a Druid tanking it. So it's not the class, or the spec, it's how good you are at it. I've no doubt there are pleanty of very good DK tanks that have no problems with Heroic Firelands at all.
Druid tanking has some problems like initial aggro but not the same thing dk tanks have. The problem with dk tanks in hardmode raiding is the damage output compared to the mitigation of damage. Want to know what happens when the boss swings for 70% of your health because you don't have constant blocking or extra armor like other tanks? Bad things happen. Thus why you don't really see death knights tanking in world first progression scenarios.
Post by
363739
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Trishi
Raegwyn is soloing outdated content that has absolutely no relevancy to current tier raiding.
Eh, how is level 85 heroic bosses (and 2 at the same time, no less) out-dated content? Just curious. And this was even before the Zandalari patch hit. Not raids, of course, but show me any other tanking class that can solo 5-man heroic bosses, and then do it with 2 at the same time. I would die to see how they can do that. I have yet to figure that out with my Druid. And while it may be it have little relevance to the current raid tier, it still says something about the class. I'm leaning more towards DKs requiring more skill than the other classes. I've seen a multitude of DKs attempt to reenact solo'ing Ozruk, all failing miserably, same applying to Slabhide. The learning curve is just that much steeper than, say, a Paladin. And that's what makes them fun, especially in 5-mans.
By comparrision, I've seen uber-geared Warriors and Paladins get killed in simple 5-man heroics (not zandalari), by taking too much damage. These are tanks with heroic Nef achievement. It just shows a completely broken balance between the classes, and this just happens to go against DKs, because the main focus is always raid bosses.
But aside from that, it isn't because all tanks should be like Death Knights. The point is that we are going away from the dps focus most tanks have. Instead of hitting buttons to do damage, we will be getting buttons to take less damage. DKs are just the class who are working most towards this already, thanks for Blade Barrier and Death Strike. Keeping Blood runes on CD gives us 6 % damage reduction, and using Death Strikes intelligently gives us a bunch of healing, and a shield to top it off.
My guess would be that things like Heart Strike will be remade to give a shield as well, or instead of only 6 % damage reduction, a 4 % reduction per set of runes currently on CD, stacking up to 12 %, ect. ect.
And for Paladins, we will go back to 4.0.0, where Word of Glory were almost enough to keep us going without a healer, and Holy Shield becoming a more prominently used ability.
I don't know which part of the blog that specifically said they wanted them to work exactly like DKs. I thought it sounded more like they wanted them to have damage reduction skills, instead of attack skills. Isn't it the same blog that came up with the example of letting Warriors generate rage through abilities and hitting (And not by being hit), and using rage to block, or similar? I loved that idea. I'm a tank, why should I care about my dps? If I wanted high numbers or awesome dps, I would roll a dps.
In fact, as much as I like Disc priest, I find the whole blend of roles to be eggrerious. Tanks tank. Damage dealers deal damage. Healers heal. Healers don't dps. Tanks don't dps. Damage healers don't heal. We have a role because that's what we are supposed to do. I'm not mad at Shadow Priests because they heal, that's nice I guess, but I would much rather have +6% damage, than 6 % healing from all damage done. I don't have a problem with Dancing Rune Weapon giving us added damage, but I'd rather have more mitigation.
The only thing that's fine with me, is tank self-healing. Self-healer is pretty much mitigation, or at the very least, something that keeps us alive, which is what a tank's main focus is.
Post by
Valkyre
I play as a blood DK in an alt raid and I heal one on my main... let me just say that raidwise there's a world of a difference between healing a blood DK and healing a paladin or warrior. Blood DKs are awesome on 5man content but progression raiding is so not fun.
Post by
DraconisAerius
I play as a blood DK in an alt raid and I heal one on my main... let me just say that raidwise there's a world of a difference between healing a blood DK and healing a paladin or warrior. Blood DKs are awesome on 5man content but progression raiding is so not fun.
See my guild heal's sometimes even get in verbal fights over who gets to heal me in Firelands atm, cause they just love how much self healing I do and how many cd's I have to pop when needed.
Post by
Problimatic
@Trishi regarding the heroic soloes, Raegwyn solo'd Ozruk and slabhide at the same time because of the way the fights work and the fact that dark succor healed 15% per death strike and you could stack blood shields in any presence. If he were to attempt the same thing now even with better gear it wouldn't go over nearly as well. (Dark succor + stacking blood shields in unholy presence was OP in low damage sitations, thus why as soon as 4.1 came out it didn't work anymore.)
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