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Fire mageing (again)
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Post by
xavierpjg
Alright so i got to bethilac in firelands yesterday and um it didn't do so good. We didn't really have anyone with enough aoe except for a hunter. Anyways, i was specced for fire when i first switched from frost along with arcane. So i decided i would get duplicate equip again and forge it towards fire. i got all the rep items and reforged them to what i could. Turned on combustion helper, and headed towards the raiding dummy in sw.
I went for 3 five min sessions on him and the most i pulled was i think 13k. I then realized, i got so into arcane spec i'd forgotten how to do fire properly. i cast living bomb. wait for the ignite and pyroblast procs, and set off combustion. but i ain't gettin crap.
Yesterday we got a fire mage to help, after someone left. After we got done with all the spiders, she was pullin 30k+ right along with me. I know fire is alot more random than arcane and i'm not fully geared for fire but i should be pullin more than 13k i believe.
Anyways is there a proper rotation for fire. Or is it just waiting and timing things to set your combustion off? Also at what point in time should u be using mirror image?
i read greywolfsage's thingy (by the way you forgot to add a feet enchantment) However didn't see anything i didn't already know.
Post by
427323
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
xavierpjg
yeah i was doing that but they just were going down fast enough. I was pulling out frost nova, ring of frost, but they just weren't going down quick enough. So i just switched to the middle size spiders when the fire mage came along and we then started actually get to where beth actually came down.
Post by
greywolfsage
So, first of all:
DUMMIES ARE NOT INDICATIVE OF TRUE RAID DPS.
I honestly don't know how many people have said this how many times across the forum, and people still fall for it.
What dummies are good for are "rotation" practice, and you can use them to compare your specs, seeing the difference in damage you do, depending on the specs talents this will or won't get skewed.
Affliction warlocks see most of their strength in Execution Phase, so dummies are inaccurate in terms of dps.
MM hunters have an early (80% and above) damage buff that skews dummies since they never lose an appreciable amount of health.
Try moving your point in Imp Counterspell and Imp Fire Blast into Pyromaniac. It's a talent that was basically designed for that fight.
You don't show much evidence of actually having read my right up. At best you skimmed bits.
Haste is the strongest stat for Fire right now. You especially don't take haste out for mastery!
Priority System. You have a few main things to watch for as a Fire Mage.
debuff. Applied via
Scorch
or
Pyroblast
or
This debuff provides 5% extra crit. Lasts 30 seconds. Same as the
debuff provided from Warlocks. If CM is disappearing early, please check for warlock talents in your group.
Living Bomb
. One of our largest sources of damage through a fight. Let it tick off so the secondary explosion can occur, which counts for Hot Streak procs, and then refresh it. Keep this up as much as you can.
– Triggered by
and
Pyroblast Clearcasting Driver
This is a free Pyroblast. Note: it counts as free for Master of Elements, so no mana back from crits. Usually a good source of ignite. Also refreshes Critical Mass, some mages prefer to hard cast this spell while tank is running in to pull.
. Keep this out and on CD. Only attacks one target at a time, but with the talent
, it has a nice little BOOM effect at the end. More damage you don't have to worry too much about. Though it is as buggy as Blink for making a travel line... >.>
Fireball
. Bread and butter. If you're not using GCD's for anything else, spam away.
Mirror Image is a threat mask. Use it as such.
Mostly when you get a string of Pyro's and or add cleaving with Impact.
Post by
Zakkhar
I went for 3 five min sessions on him and the most i pulled was i think 13k. I then realized, i got so into arcane spec i'd forgotten how to do fire properly. i cast living bomb. wait for the ignite and pyroblast procs, and set off combustion. but i ain't gettin crap.
Dots dont ignite any more.
Plus i dont know how you wait...
Plus combustion isnt as important part of fire as burn phase is for arcane.
Anyways is there a proper rotation for fire. Or is it just waiting and timing things to set your combustion off? Also at what point in time should u be using mirror image?
Mirror image isnt a clear dps gain. Use it more as a threat reducer. I use it at start when all my stuff proc and tank doesnt have good agro yet.
PS: On Beth, i like arcane better. AE aoe is so much more reliable than all fire aoe.
PS2: Your stats maybe are good for arcane, but are all wrong for fire.
Post by
xavierpjg
I do not have all my fire gear yet so looking at my armory is kinda pointless. I only have the neck, back, feet, and belt pieces for my fire set. not even sure which set my mage is wearing atm. And i know the dummy is a crappy thing to test your dps on (it can't account for all the diff buffs and everything you get in raids nor can it account for the individual raid boss mechanics and stats. I was just comparing it to what my arcane spec does. Considering i'm not fully geared for fire yet i guess 9-13k ain't bad considering what gear i have atm.
Greywolf, trust me i actually read it (hence why i said you were missing feet enchantment on it lol). I just probably am not the best at explaining things through typing. But yeah i did my talents way back when and will redo them whenever i get back on. Won't be back on the game again till tuesday though so....
Zakkar: Like i said in first post. I'm usin combustion helper so when i say "wait" i mean while attacking, watching the helper, and waiting for the LB prc (which is constant) the ignite proc, and the pyroblast proc to set off combustion.
Post by
Zakkhar
I do not have all my fire gear yet so looking at my armory is kinda pointless. I only have the neck, back, feet, and belt pieces for my fire set. not even sure which set my mage is wearing atm. And i know the dummy is a crappy thing to test your dps on (it can't account for all the diff buffs and everything you get in raids nor can it account for the individual raid boss mechanics and stats. I was just comparing it to what my arcane spec does. Considering i'm not fully geared for fire yet i guess 9-13k ain't bad considering what gear i have atm.
Erm, i use same set for fire and arcane. With same reforges and same trinket setup.
I guess you either got far more good gear than i do or you downgrade it for the sake of being itemised for fire (no such thing).
Post by
151788
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
xavierpjg
--^^
Yeah, how are you using the same gear for fire and arcane, you would be losing ALOT of power depending on which spec you were forged for. For instance, Fire spec does not worry about mastery at all. Its the one stat you constantly forge away from. I have also noticed you need more haste with fire.
And i'm not talking about downgrading some for fire. I'm accquiring an exact duplicate set (of what i can) for fire and forging it for that spec. If i load my arcane gear in rawr or askmrrobot or anything like that , it tells me to either remove the forge or reforge everypiece of equiptment i have for fire. So i cannot see how usin the same setup for both spec can be feasible or viable.
Post by
Zakkhar
--^^
Yeah, how are you using the same gear for fire and arcane, you would be losing ALOT of power depending on which spec you were forged for. For instance, Fire spec does not worry about mastery at all. Its the one stat you constantly forge away from. I have also noticed you need more haste with fire.
Haste is good for both, i am stacked with haste like no tomorrow, reforging from crit and mastery.
And i'm not talking about downgrading some for fire. I'm accquiring an exact duplicate set (of what i can) for fire and forging it for that spec. If i load my arcane gear in rawr or askmrrobot or anything like that , it tells me to either remove the forge or reforge everypiece of equiptment i have for fire. So i cannot see how usin the same setup for both spec can be feasible or viable.
Rawr and mrrobot? Both use fixed stat weights not dependand of your current gear levels. Plus you gotta check those stat weights sometimes, the differences arent really all that significant.
Also they are there as guidance, not as an altar of the all-knowing-god. There is plenty of stuff it tells me to do and i deliberately choose not to.
Fire and Arcane gearing is not even close to the same.....except when using Fire for Alysrazor, Mastery is great for that fight. But when reforging/gearing for normal Fire fights you would get rid of all Mastery reforges in favor of crit=haste. You gimp your dps by keeping same priorities.
I dont know what people see in mastery (fire). Even in that fight mastery is only a small margin of your total damage. Haste is what really matters. With my amounts of this stat i can go on pyro spam after like 8-10 stacks.
I dont gimp anything, i just dont stack crit like an idiot.
Post by
xavierpjg
Yes haste is good for both but i was referring to the mastery for arcane. Its kind of a must. And yes you are right, the programs are not perfect. But they are a good guide. I used it on arcane spec and all i had to do was lose some crit for haste on it. However using it upgraded my dps significantly.
Post by
151788
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
xavierpjg
Fire is still competetive. Did you not read my first post about the fire mage pullin big numbers right along side me. However i think that was only with combustion going off though cause my dps was higher than hers any other time. But never more than 2-3k.
And as for mastery with fire. Anywhere you read it does say to forge away from mastery. Arcane is the complete opposite. Its no wonder fire has so much haste and crit. but i've noticed fireball also takes longer than ab to cast with the same haste so that's probably why.
Post by
151788
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
nickseng
Fire is not competive for most of FL boss fights.
Depends on how you define competetive.
if (competitive == top of the charts)
{
Fire = not competitive;
}
else
{
Fire = competitive;
}
Post by
Zakkhar
One of the main reasons Mastery is best stat to stack for this fight is: the HUGE ignite ticks....also, if you get all or most of the rings you will be capped on both Haste and Crit
You wont be capped with haste if you use pyro and you shouldnt use anything but pyro and LB there (and combustion). More pyros more ignites. It doesnt work the other way - more ignites doesnt mean more pyros.
And also Fire Mastery benifits from dots, which we get from critting...if we get the crit buff from gathering 25 rings we crit almost 100% So huge Ignite ticks + huge Mastery buffed Combustions = insane dps...I am sorry but not stacking Mastery is not optimal for this fight....prove me wrong, I will gladly change my mind and reforges for extra dps if you do....
I will check my damage breakdown this week, you'll see how much damage i get from mastery and how much from haste.
Also Rawr is not fixed....the values change when one becomes more valuable then the other.
Rawr is seriously bugged for most classes/specs, i am surprised anyone mentions it as a reliable tool.
You are the only Mage I know that reforges out of Mastery for Haste. I mean maybe if you Haste is super low and you need to get to the 1.0 AB with Bloodlust...but other then that I do not believe that Mastery should be reforged out of for anything but Hit. (and that is impossible because there is always more then 1 stat to reforge)
Hmmm you may have been referring to Fire spec not Arcane.....If you raid Fire and were not referring to Arcane then the above Mastery related paragraph does not apply.
I raid both. Typically:
Fire: Rag, Baleroc, Alys
Arcane: Rest
I know mastery is great for arcane, the problem is its (most of the time) @#$% for fire. Bloodlust is 40seconds of a fight - my encounters usually take a little more than that. Haste affects my arcane dps during all the rest of the fight.
Post by
151788
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
nickseng
Just throwing it out there.
You can also do Baleroc as Frost. It has more consistent dps than Fire, less dps loss on movement, and Ice Barrier to take slightly more stacks of Torment.
Post by
xavierpjg
I know mastery is great for arcane, the problem is its (most of the time) @#$% for fire. Bloodlust is 40seconds of a fight - my encounters usually take a little more than that. Haste affects my arcane dps during all the rest of the fight.
Interesting point, However, seeing how arcane rotations are based on the mastery aspect of the spec, i would have to disagree. This is the exact reason i'm working on obtaining a duplicate copy of gear and forging the set to fire. If you do not have the mastery for arcane, then you are underpowered. We are called glass cannons. Not glass squirt guns lol.
Post by
Zakkhar
I know mastery is great for arcane, the problem is its (most of the time) @#$% for fire. Bloodlust is 40seconds of a fight - my encounters usually take a little more than that. Haste affects my arcane dps during all the rest of the fight.
Interesting point, However, seeing how arcane rotations are based on the mastery aspect of the spec, i would have to disagree. This is the exact reason i'm working on obtaining a duplicate copy of gear and forging the set to fire. If you do not have the mastery for arcane, then you are underpowered. We are called glass cannons. Not glass squirt guns lol.
There is no point really.
All secondary stats should actually be called third stats for arcane. Int is what really matters. Rest is just a flavour on top. I currently have of 3740 points of secondary non-hit stats (2058 haste, 798 mastery, 884 crit). Do you really think slightly different allocation of these (like 2k+ mastery instead of haste) can affect dps in a distinctive manner? Look at the stat weights and tell me what the difference in dps will be. 1%? 2?
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