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Alternatives To How We Live.
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Post by
Transducer
I think his point is that you'll have more people doing certain jobs than are necessary, and as a direct result, you'll be gimping other areas.
This is definitely a possible issue. There are other potential problems and issues that could arise as well.
Issues if we do, issues if we don't. But the former cannot be resolved, and the latter cannot be known, if society is too conservatively stubborn to
try
. Or perhaps just too tightly chained by our current typical financial overlords.
Again, thankfully, there are small-scale choices for like minded people, see my 'intentional communities' link on the last page. :P
Post by
Jubilee
Actually we can know. It's just a matter applying a little math (see my example that I edited in). The market decides what's needed. If you want to become a shoe maker, you can. But if you suck at making shoes, you're not going to make it. And if there is no demand for shoes, you're not going to make it.
Post by
Transducer
Actually we can know. It's just a matter applying a little math (see my example that I edited in). The market decides what's needed. If you want to become a shoe maker, you can. But if you suck at making shoes, you're not going to make it. And if there is no demand for shoes, you're not going to make it.
Oh, that's just one of those 'special' issues... the kind of thing that is only a big deal if people are going to wring their hands and be whiny $%^&*es that expect 100% everything perfectly suiting their expectations. A very important cultural attitude that needs to be addressed.
The chances of any 2nd or 3rd choice for a job not working out are pretty slim, I'd imagine. 4th chance for the unlucky buggers. Encourage a job-role system of such choices. Hell, make it a list of
ten
jobs. You'd have to be awfully picky not to have at least 10 choices on a 'I wanna be a <insert job>' list.
But the way things are now? For most people, there is no choice. Job searching is like gambling. Let's roll the dice and see what lucky *!@#ty (for you) job you might get
this
time. It's depressing, degrading, inefficient, and needs to be done away with.
Post by
Squishalot
The point is that the 'jobs in demand' are compensated with higher pay at the moment. Jobs in supply are compensated with lower pay, because there are plenty of people who are willing to work for less.
In Cambo's ideal world, there would be no pay issues - essentially, everyone would get the 'same' pay, because everything is free. So what is the incentive for someone to do a job-in-demand, as opposed to a job-they-want-to-do?
the kind of thing that is only a big deal if people are going to wring their hands and be whiny $%^&*es that expect 100% everything perfectly suiting their expectations. A very important cultural attitude that needs to be addressed.
You don't need to have a cash-free system for this to work. People ought to go out and do that already.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
Jubilee
Actually we can know. It's just a matter applying a little math (see my example that I edited in). The market decides what's needed. If you want to become a shoe maker, you can. But if you suck at making shoes, you're not going to make it. And if there is no demand for shoes, you're not going to make it.
Oh, that's just one of those 'special' issues... the kind of thing that is only a big deal if people are going to wring their hands and be whiny $%^&*es that expect 100% everything perfectly suiting their expectations. A very important cultural attitude that needs to be addressed.
The chances of any 2nd or 3rd choice for a job not working out are pretty slim, I'd imagine. 4th chance for the unlucky buggers. Encourage a job-role system of such choices.
So, in other words, exactly the same world we live in at the moment? People make a mental list of jobs they want and try to get into the highest one on the list they can. Their skills and the market decide how high that is.
Here's my list:
Novelist
Comic Book Shop Owner
Actress
Lawyer
Librarian
Stay-at-home Mom
Burger-flipper
I haven't really succeeded at the first and I don't have the funds to do the second, so I'm working on the third by taking courses and I have plans for law school too if that doesn't work well, and I can always fall back on Librarian and maybe I'll have kids and stay at home, and if worst comes to worst, I'll flip burgers. Now if I can't do any of those I'll just continue the list down with what's left.
Post by
Transducer
So what is the incentive for someone to do a job-in-demand, as opposed to a job-they-want-to-do?
None beyond the usual 'for the good of the community, but not for you' spiel.
I refuse to believe its not possible to assign someone to one of TEN possible jobs, though (I added that in my last post to be more realistic).
What are the chances?
Post by
Squishalot
So what is the incentive for someone to do a job-in-demand, as opposed to a job-they-want-to-do?
None beyond the usual 'for the good of the community, but not for you' spiel.
I refuse to believe its not possible to assign someone to one of TEN possible jobs, though.
Again, what you're saying is possible right now. The idea of people working in jobs that they enjoy does not require fundamental societal change. If you don't like your job, go work somewhere that you do enjoy. Pick ten possible places. What makes current society job hunting a gamble, but this new society job hunting not a gamble? Why do you think it's different?(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
Transducer
So, in other words, exactly the same world we live in at the moment? People make a mental list of jobs they want and try to get into the highest one on the list they can. Their skills and the market decide how high that is.
Squishalot]
Again, what you're saying is possible right now. The idea of people working in jobs that they enjoy does not require fundamental societal change. If you don't like your job, go work somewhere that you do enjoy. Pick ten possible places. What makes current society job hunting a gamble, but this new society job hunting not a gamble? Why do you think it's different?
In theory? Yes.. and you both make good points..
but I don't know..
there sure are an awful lot of people that seem to feel like they have exactly the job they
DO NOT WANT
, though. A very, very large number. More than 50% of the workforce, I would guess.
I would think that
something
is wrong with the current job assigning system then.
Or are most people just whiny @#$%^es?
Maybe it's an issue of how jobs are structured, or what expectations and demands are made of employees.
(I sure like to edit a lot)
Post by
Jubilee
The "problem" is that there are only so many fun jobs in the world. Simple as that I think. If 7 billion people want fun jobs, and there are only 1 billion of them, then 6 billion people are going to be unhappy to one degree or another.
Post by
Squishalot
Or are most people just whiny @#$%^es?
This, mainly. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.
The problem is, if a lot of people don't like the jobs that they have now, and can't get a job that they do like, given that there will be exactly the same jobs in the new society, you're going to have exactly the same problems.
Post by
Transducer
Well, regardless of human discontent and envy...
I think we derailed the thread a bit..
Original poster, if you're still reading, please see my 'intentional communities' link on 2nd page. That's pretty much your solution right there.
All this stuff we're discussing even on this 3rd page can be resolved in those mini-societies. Just pick the one best suited to your tastes.
Plan to quit your job, sort out finances, move. Good luck.
Post by
Squishalot
I don't know why you think it can be resolved, not in the way that Cambo wants it. There are always going to be jobs that nobody wants. If you think that there are enough people who 'want' to become toilet cleaners and garbage truck drivers to warrant a free society, or that there are enough people who want to be doctors for the same compensation as the toilet cleaner, I think you're dreaming.
That's not even coping with the idea that there aren't going to be the resources available to produce the level of consumer 'want' goods that Cambo is imagining.
As I've said to start off with - if he wants to get his hands dirty and be self-sufficient, buying a farm (and there is plenty of space in South Island) and becoming that isn't hard to do without relying on random structures.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
xaratherus
The human animal is the flaw that ruined the perfect dream of Communism.
As others have mentioned, what Cambo seems to be proposing is a sort of perfect Communism. On a small scale this would probably work, at least for basic life needs and perhaps simple 'want' goods. There are communities similar to this in New Mexico and various other locations throughout the United States, and probably the world.
But on a large scale? It fails because, while the majority may be "good chaps" in most things, and excellent people in a pinch, in times of plenty they are also driven by the base human desire for more - more comfort, more social prestige, more whatever. And in order for this idea to work on a large scale, you have to convince them to overcome that.
But why should they, especially if they happen to satisfied with their life as it stands?
Post by
OverZealous
A system like the one you are suggesting might work at some point, but I believe we are many, many years from that point right now. Greed is a major part of the human psyche, and that won't change quickly.
Post by
gnomerdon
The "problem" is that there are only so many fun jobs in the world. Simple as that I think. If 7 billion people want fun jobs, and there are only 1 billion of them, then 6 billion people are going to be unhappy to one degree or another.
Jobs are not fun.
Post by
xaratherus
The "problem" is that there are only so many fun jobs in the world. Simple as that I think. If 7 billion people want fun jobs, and there are only 1 billion of them, then 6 billion people are going to be unhappy to one degree or another.
Not to mention that a significant number of the "unfun" jobs can be necessary for survival. How many people are really going to jump for joy when they're told that all the jobs in the air-conditioned warehouse are filled, and they get to go sweat in the sun for a hours a day harvesting crops?
Post by
pezz
I refuse to believe its not possible to assign someone to one of TEN possible jobs, though (I added that in my last post to be more realistic).
What are the chances?
Pretty high. In my top ten list of jobs I'm probably not qualified for three (so society expends thousands feeding me and getting me my PhD), not intelligent/strong/quick enough for four (so society expends thousands feeding me and trying and failing to get me my PhD, or expends thousands feeding me/trying to teach me to play professional football), and the other three are 'stay at home and drink beer and do nothing but get paid for it' or some variation thereof.
Side note:
Communism isn't a perfect dream or an egalitarian system at all. It's brutally unfair to the most competent members of society. With the caveat that extremely small, ethnically homogeneous, and generally not terribly technophile communities have done a pretty good job with collective societies in the past, and that, according to
Sex at Dawn
, our primitive ancestors in very small tribes were pretty collective when it came to the spoils of hunting. I wouldn't ever try communism in a community of more than ~150 people, which is far smaller than necessary for the level of specialization and trade that results in anything approaching the level of technology we have no.
Post by
Transducer
I wouldn't ever try communism in a community of more than ~150 people, which is far smaller than necessary for the level of specialization and trade that results in anything approaching the level of technology we have no.
Intentional communities tend to be this small or smaller, like-minded people banding together for sanity. :)
*edit* apologies if a week is considered necro.. >_>
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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