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Can of Worms: Should young women stop dressing so 'slutty'?
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Post by
Squishalot
I really dislike this very question.
Should women over 50 stop eating peas?
Should white males not wear tank tops?
Is the dressing habits of any demographic any of my business?
This isn't an interesting ethical question; it's presumptuous, judgemental condescension.
I think you're missing the point, asakawa. The whole 'Slutwalk' movement was a result of the fact that the dressing habits of the young female demographic were being linked to a criminal activity, and that it becomes an ethical question when changing the dressing habits may reduce said criminal activity.
The questions you posed may seem similar, on the face of it, but they're not. "Should children wear t-shirts?" is not a similar question. What might be similar, however, is "Should men wear ties at white-collar job interviews?". And even if it doesn't have the same strength of ethical conviction that the 'slutwalk' movement has, it has its own ethical dilemma - is it ok to discriminate against someone and/or treat them differently because they're not dressed to your standards?
Here's a question for you then, seeing as you don't think the dressing habits of any demographic are any of your business. Should parents allow girls under 8 years old to wear makeup and padded bras? Dressing habits? Check. Demographic? Check. Ethical issue? I'd say so. The very fact that the first two pages kept questioning "how young is 'young'?" suggests that the demographic is a meaningful issue.
Post by
asakawa
What I'm saying is that your question (or, at least, I understand it's the way the TV program phrased it) is really bad.
Should young women stop dressing so 'slutty'?
Young or old women or men can dress however they wish.
I
may have opinions but
I
don't get to have any say about that.
You just asked a better one that is more of an ethical question:
is it ok to discriminate against someone and/or treat them differently because they're not dressed to your standards?
This is a more interesting question because now there's a question of
my
standards and that's where this question should be seated.
Is it okay for so many people to be so judgemental based only on someone's choice of clothes?
I'm aware of the slutwalk protests (though I haven't been aware of it for very long - I think it was an article I read a month or two ago in boingboing) but the very phrasing of your question shows what that movement is trying to break down.
The kinds of people who think young women
should
dress more demurely are the kinds of people who think a provocatively dressed woman deserved to be raped (or at least that a share of the blame ought to be attributed to the innocent woman and not entirely at the feet of the rapist).
I understand that you probably took the question itself directly from the TV program but I just wanted to register my dislike.
Post by
Jubilee
So you think the question should be rewritten to fit your views? You might not think "should" is a valid question about clothes, but that doesn't mean that other people don't.
Post by
Squishalot
I hear what you're saying, but that's why the 3rd reply of this thread tried to clarify the question:
Just to note - the question isn't about whether you should be able to tell a girl how to dress, or anything like that. Just whether they ought to or not, in your opinion, noting that they can still do whatever they want if they feel like it.
However:
The kinds of people who think young women should dress more demurely are the kinds of people who think a provocatively dressed woman deserved to be raped (or at least that a share of the blame ought to be attributed to the innocent woman and not entirely at the feet of the rapist).
I firmly disagree. And on this note, there's an interesting question of whether someone is 'asking for it' or not, to which I disagree with the feminist view that 'nobody is asking for it'.
(Hold off on the flames for a sec, I'm getting somewhere.)
Yes, nobody 'asks' to be raped, or 'asks' for unwanted attention, by definition. They are not literally asking for it any more than you would literally ask for your wallet to be stolen. However, if you leave your wallet on the bar that you're drinking at while you head off to the loo, you're figuratively 'asking for it' to be stolen. Likewise, if you show up to an African American gathering in a white pointed hoodie, you're 'asking for trouble'. If you drink 30 beers in a single night, other than the awards you get for being a record binge drinker, you're also 'asking for trouble'.
In the same light, I believe that any commentary about people 'asking for it' should be taken in the spirit in which it's offered - figuratively, not literally. If a girl dresses in a 'Gosford' skirt and flirts with the boys, drinks it up and grinds up with them on the dance floor, she's putting herself in a position that may compromise her control over her safety and wellbeing, and is therefore 'asking for trouble'.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
asakawa
I'm sorry, I admit that I didn't read the third reply there.
@Jubilee, I'm absolutely saying that I have a strong
personal
dislike for the phrasing and trying my best to get across why that is. I may be putting things in fairly emphatic terms but I'm well aware that it's my own opinion and others are available.
@Squish, You're moving things there from 'dressing like...' to 'acting like...'. Dress is a form of expression while behaviour can make things muddier. Freedom of speech and of expression is important. Someone may think that 'emo kids' look a bit silly but that doesn't mean that they're asking for someone to beat them up.
My personal view is still that the criminal behaved criminally and, unless we're actually talking about coercion on the part of the victim, that's the end of that. I also think you're subtly but naughtily undermining and marginalising the issue by calling it the "feminist view".
Post by
173035
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
The problem is that when a person in an official capacity suggests that in the case of sexual harassment and/or rape anyone but the aggressor is guilty, it creates a climate where you can safely say "it was her own fault."
You can read into it as much as you like, but the cop said (not sure if it's exactly verbatim, but) "women should avoid dressing like sluts to avoid being victimised". To me, that's no different to "people should avoid leaving their belongings unattended to avoid theft". How is one statement right and one statement wrong? Does one statement somehow assign blame away from the offender and towards the careless person, but not the other?
Planting the idea in rape victims' heads that they are in any way at fault for some freak attacking them is in my opinion grounds for being sacked. Not only have they experienced a hideous violation, now the public officials they should be able to trust to catch and punish their attacker are telling them "if you hadn't dressed like a &*!@, this wouldn't have happened to you." That's both figuratively and literally unacceptable.
You know what? If you'd kept an eye on your wallet and hadn't left it on the bar when you went to take a leak, it wouldn't be stolen. Tell me how that's figuratively and literally unacceptable, or explain why that's not, but saying the same thing about dressing like a slut is?
Post by
OverZealous
The problem is that when a person in an official capacity suggests that in the case of sexual harassment and/or rape anyone but the aggressor is guilty, it creates a climate where you can safely say "it was her own fault."
You can read into it as much as you like, but the cop said (not sure if it's exactly verbatim, but) "women should avoid dressing like *!@#s to avoid being victimised". To me, that's no different to "people should avoid leaving their belongings unattended to avoid theft". How is one statement right and one statement wrong? Does one statement somehow assign blame away from the offender and towards the careless person, but not the other?
This is a very good point.
I tried to write something coherent as for why this might be, but lack of sleep is stopping me from wording an argument. I'll try and provide something decent later on.
Post by
asakawa
Leaving something unattended isn't analogous. The analogy in this situation is "Yeah I violently robbed that person of their wallet, but did you see their wallet?! Nobody carries around a wallet like that if they don't
want
to be beaten and robbed"
Post by
Squishalot
Leaving something unattended isn't analogous. The analogy in this situation is "Yeah I violently robbed that person of their wallet, but did you see their wallet?! Nobody carries around a wallet like that if they don't
want
to be beaten and robbed"
Wrong. Nobody wants to be robbed. The notion of figuratively 'asking to be robbed' is completely different from the notion of literally 'asking to be robbed'. It should be a sad day that people don't understand the difference between figurative and literal statements, but when people are 'literally exploding in anger' at the issue, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.
@Squish, You're moving things there from 'dressing like...' to 'acting like...'. Dress is a form of expression while behaviour can make things muddier. Freedom of speech and of expression is important. Someone may think that 'emo kids' look a bit silly but that doesn't mean that they're asking for someone to beat them up.
My personal view is still that the criminal behaved criminally and, unless we're actually talking about coercion on the part of the victim, that's the end of that. I also think you're subtly but naughtily undermining and marginalising the issue by calling it the "feminist view".
Sorry, I missed seeing this post before.
I don't see much difference between 'dressing like' and 'acting like'. Behaviour is a form of expression. Dressing is, in fact, a form of behaviour. They're all interrelated, and I don't think it makes sense to say that 'telling people how to dress is offlimits' when 'telling people how to act is permitted'.
As I've said - there is nothing about the criminal behaving criminally that the cop's comments (or anyone's comments, really) is advocating or defending. The fault, per se, is still 100% in the hands of the offender, just as much as the thief is 100% responsible for the criminal act of the missing wallet from the bar table. That doesn't change the fact that leaving the wallet there is a stupid thing to do.
As for the 'feminist' view, it's not my intention to marginalise it. However, it appears to be a view that is highly correlated with feminists, and more specifically, the attitude of those who organise the slutwalks. I'm more than happy to have it treated as a general view instead.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
ElhonnaDS
I find it funny that the person who started talking about pride being a sin, had pages and pages of love for the old gods and how to roleplay a character who summons demons. Just an observation.
Post by
asakawa
Nobody wants to be robbed? Nobody wants to be raped. I understand why you think there's a distinction to be made but I disagree that it's a valid one. Rape is closer to assault and battery than to sex between consensual adults.
You think that the state of someone's attire constitutes an opportunity to rape them?! (or that this argument is in any way an understandable one).
Regarding the analogy, the "left" wallet at some point becomes "lost" and, in property, possession is nine tenths of the blah blah. It really is a terrible and distasteful analogy for the situation where someone is assaulted.
There are complexities to the legal question of rape but when nothing is involved but the attire of the victim there is zero complexity. There is no excuse for raping or assaulting another human being in that case. If women were completely naked would that make raping them okay?
Okay, you added some more.
So we're not defending the acts of criminals? Okay, then I'm on board.
As I said I just wanted to register my dislike of the phrasing.
I don't know nearly enough about opportunistic rape to get into much discussion on whether people's attire really plays into crime figures much.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##
Post by
Squishalot
Nobody wants to be robbed? Nobody wants to be raped.
Yes, and that's precisely my point, why I'm using it as an analogy.
Edit:
I understand why you think there's a distinction to be made but I disagree that it's a valid one. Rape is closer to assault and battery than to sex between consensual adults.
Now I don't understand you. What distinction do you think I'm making? I'm making a distinction between "figuratively asking for it" and "literally asking for it". What are you talking about? You're the one drawing a distinction between wanting to be robbed and wanting to be raped.
You think that the state of someone's attire constitutes an opportunity to rape them?! (or that this argument is in any way an understandable one).
No more or less so than an unlocked door or a lonely wallet constitutes an opportunity to steal.
Regarding the analogy, the "left" wallet at some point becomes "lost" and, in property, possession is nine tenths of the blah blah. It really is a terrible and distasteful analogy for the situation where someone is assaulted.
Substitute 'wallet left' for 'house unlocked'. Possession being nine tenths of the law is layman's crap. Theft is theft, just like rape is rape. Arguing that possession is nine-tenths of the law is like saying "she was unconscious so of course she didn't object". They're both completely and utterly incorrect.
As for 'terrible and distasteful', again, why? You're trying to make some sort of moral point, and I just don't see it being rational. Why shouldn't one crime be compared to another?
I don't know nearly enough about opportunistic rape to get into much discussion on whether people's attire really plays into crime figures much.
There are numerous statistics that aren't terribly convincing one way or another. That's why I always focus on the idea that it may not result in opportunistic rape specifically, but it does attract unwanted attention, be it mental or physical.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
asakawa
Okay, rereading your "nobody wants to be robbed" comment I had misunderstood what you were saying but that's because I think you misunderstood my analogy.
In that analogy I was inventing a fictionally alluring wallet regarding which a
robber
might figuratively say that the victim was asking for it. Which is much closer analogy than some lost property being picked up off an empty table.
I'm not really sure what you were getting at with the figurative/literal thing to be honest (unless you were under the misapprehension that I though there was some literal asking/wanting going on which would be very silly) which may well be because I haven't read the whole thread (for which I apologise) but you seemed to be aiming it at me so I attempted to address it.
Anyway, if there's no blame of the victim going on in this thread then my axe is ground (awkward past-tense of having an axe to grind >.<). If it's just a "grumpy old men" sort of judging of others then go for it but I'm not interested in that.
(which I don't mean as a judgement of those taking part in the discussion or Squish for starting it. I might think less (or more) of someone based on how they choose to present themselves. That's natural, just not that interesting to me)(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##
Post by
Jubilee
@Jubilee, I'm absolutely saying that I have a strong personal dislike for the phrasing and trying my best to get across why that is. I may be putting things in fairly emphatic terms but I'm well aware that it's my own opinion and others are available.
What I'm seeing is just you give the answer "no" is a much more roundabout and "demeaning to the other side" way.
Post by
asakawa
I haven't actually voted on the question since I don't have an answer for
this
one. I don't mean to be at all demeaning to any individual or even to any opposing view points. My only strong feeling here is that the question itself (subtly) does a disservice to victims of assaults.
Post by
Squishalot
I haven't actually voted on the question since I don't have an answer for
this
one. I don't mean to be at all demeaning to any individual or even to any opposing view points. My only strong feeling here is that the question itself (subtly) does a disservice to victims of assaults.
It's a relevant point you make though, because people are too busy quibbling over the semantics of the question/issue (e.g. complaining about the idea of 'asking for it', or 'we have the right to wear what we want) and completely ignoring the core issues underlying the slogans. On both sides of the fence.
(Btw, the point on the 'literal' / 'figurative' was the idea that 'people who want women to dress more demurely attribute blame to the woman' - that equates to the argument that the 'woman is asking for it', in my mind. Otherwise, how else can one attribute blame to them?)
Anyway, I'm off for the night. Cheers all.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
asakawa
(Btw, the point on the 'literal' / 'figurative' was the idea that 'people who want women to dress more demurely attribute blame to the woman' - that equates to the argument that the 'woman is asking for it', in my mind. Otherwise, how else can one attribute blame to them?)
Exactly, it's absurd!
G'night mate.
Post by
Squishalot
(Btw, the point on the 'literal' / 'figurative' was the idea that 'people who want women to dress more demurely attribute blame to the woman' - that equates to the argument that the 'woman is asking for it', in my mind. Otherwise, how else can one attribute blame to them?)
Exactly, it's absurd!
The problem is, I think it's absurd to suggest that anyone thinks that women 'literally' ask for it, yet it seems that a lot of people who participated / organised the Slutwalk movements appear to believe that that's what a) the cop thought, and b) what a lot of people think. They couldn't be further from the truth.
Post by
164232
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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