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Bombing and shooting in Norway
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Post by
Cambo
However, they are disliked, because among criminals their percentage is fairly high and in criminal world and jails their language is almost the official one. They came here as they usually do - hoping, to get easier job, more money and nicer housing. Some of them, who manage to learn the language and are not afraid to work, really does. The others are disappointed that working is as hard as everywhere, so they don't and become the ones spending my taxes.
Can you show us some data from your government supporting this?
You have 'nationals' in your jails and committing crimes, being a burden on the tax system too, right?
Post by
Tontons
There are some cities where I can be pretty sure I won't be understood.
Talking about this:
- I don't understand.
- No, you are a fascist.
This situation is classic. Spending a day at market or in shops in wrong district kinda guarantees this to happen. "I don't understand" is always viewed as disrespect. If they say it, it means they are living here not caring to learn the language. If we say, they see it as we are so bad not allowing to speak their native language. Well, I know their language now, yet I didn't know it while growing up so going to shops or something like that was always a huge pain. It teached me to be a nationalist and all of us here have more or less the same experience.
We don't have different skin tones or something like that. Those who speak our language and work with us are the same as we are. Well, we have some gypsies and I know a black guy too, but I'd say - it's about the faction, not the race.
I have not been to prison, but... When you go to another country, you know everyone there will talk in another language and almost none will speak your language. With the same level of confidence you know what language is spoken in jail or football squads here. This is not a joke, it's a problem
Maybe this will explain the situation a bit more and give one more clue on which country I am from. This joke was quite popular few months ago: our language is the hardest in the world. There is no other country where one could live for sixty years not understanding a single word.
Can you show us some data from your government supporting this?
You have 'nationals' in your jails and committing crimes, being a burden on the tax system too, right?
1) No. I doubt such statistics are made. However we have these districts similar to ghettos in american films where you are sure to meet some hostile representative of the ethnic minority or even a group of them.
2) Yes.
Post by
Jubilee
Out of curiosity, has anyone read Breivik's manifesto? I'm only glanced through it (it's over 1500 pages long), but it's looking to be an extremely weird and probably sickening read. You can totally tell that he is/was a gamer or at least had the mentality that most gamers have, especially in his whole set up of the organization and all his strategies for assaulting things like nuclear power plants. It sounds like carefully constructed role-play. A role-play that sadly became all too real. There's even the equivalency of a achievement system in there D:
Post by
Patty
He also discussed how to use gaming in MMOs as an excuse for carrying out actions such as his. I've not read it yet, but I have a link (not sure if it would be against the rules to post it here, though, it outlines how to make explosives iirc).
Post by
ElhonnaDS
@Tontons- actually, things that "everyone know" about a group of people, but no one has actual first hand knowledge of, is called a stereotype. If you haven't been to jail, you're operating on common opinion. You know what languages people speak in other countries because they publish books and produce television in that language, and might actually have one or more languages listed as an official national language. If you're going to be mad at people about something, at least make sure you have the facts about it.
They do studies about everything. I'm sure if you look up the percentage of your country made up by this ethnicity, vs. the percentage of your jail population made up of this ethnicity, you could find hard numbers. If you let me know which country and ethnicities I'm looking up, I'd be happy to do the research. The joke really doesn't help me any- similar jokes are made by any place with a large enough immigrant population to have more than one language used in commerce.
In terms of movies about American ghettos- they're movies. Everything is exaggerated. In reality, you're not "sure to meet" roving groups of people hostile to anyone not of their race. It's possible you might run into people who have a problem with people not of their race to the point that they start fights in the street about it, but it's not the norm or a frequent occurence.
I spent 4 years of college living in an area where the income level was way, way below average and the ethnic makeup was such that I was out of the ordinary, and I never once had an issue with someone "hostile" because of it. Of course, I am friendly with everyone and don't have any hostility towards others myself, so maybe people pick up on things like this. I'm not saying it never happens- but generally how you feel about people you're interacting with shows, even if you specifically say nothing. You'd be surprised how many people with racist views justify them by all of the issues they have dealing with people of other races, but never once stop to think that their attitude about these people is pretty visable, and that is half of what causes their problems.
I cannot imagine someone being angry just because you don't speak their language, unless you give them an attitude about it. I have gone into shops a number of time where my spanish was not good enough for us to communicate, and in general we both end up laughing about it. I have gone abroad to asia where I basically spoke none of the language, and was walking around with a dictionary pointing to words, and people never seemed to mind. Tone of voice, body language, facial expressions, volume- those things translate very well.
Post by
Tontons
They do studies about everything. I'm sure if you look up the percentage of your country made up by this ethnicity, vs. the percentage of your jail population made up of this ethnicity, you could find hard numbers. If you let me know which country and ethnicities I'm looking up, I'd be happy to do the research.
The country is Latvia. And we are talking about language not the ethnicity, because belarussians, ukrainians and some others are russian speakers here.
I cannot imagine someone being angry just because you don't speak their language, unless you give them an attitude about it.
We had census this year and my friend worked as a surveyor (or what it is called?). He entered an appartment where some elderly russian people lived and said in russian "I'm sorry my russian is not perfect." Old guy's answer in not so friendly voice was: "Well, it should be."
I might say that by not knowing a language you really give an attitude here.
Post by
Patty
However, just because
one
couple says something like that doesn't mean
all
Russians think like that.
Post by
Tontons
Which is why I also have some russian friends... But, as I said before, those who do speak latvian, are the same as latvians are. It's really about those who refuse to do so.
I also know a guy who is
really radical
latvian nationalist although his father is russian.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
So...I did some research. You were right- I couldn't find a source that would do a breakdown of the prison population in Latvia by ethnicity. Of course, I am searching on english websites- there might be more information that I don't have access because I don't speak the language. I did find some other interesting information, though.
According to different sources, between 29 nd 36% of Latvia considers Russian their native language. According to surveys and studies done, only 9% of all people in Latvia who are not ethnic Latvians have no skill in the Latvian language. Meaning that 91% of people who are immigrants to that country, do actually speak at least some of the language.
In regards to the prison populations, the one article that I found that mentioned language use in Latvian prisons said that Latvian and Russian were used side by side, not that that Russian was the predominant language. What I found fascinating is that in Latvia, 40% of those in prison haven't had a trial. There are huge human rights movements complaining that the
average
time someone ever spends in jail before being tried is 2 years, and in many cases it can be much, much longer. There are also a number of articles about how bad the corruption is in Latvia, and how foreign businessmen can't do anything there without bribing people, how common bribery is in the police force, etc. It's funny how a minority group makes up a larger percentage of a prison population where almost half haven't been tried, and you have to have money to bribe the cops to stay out of jail.
And, what I find most interesting, now that I know we're talking about Latvia, is the reason that such a large part of the population is Russian speaking, is that they were a part of the Soviet Union, and only gained independence in 1991. So, if you believe that you have the right to your country because your fathers and grandfathers conquered people and built a country for you...and then the Russian people conquered you and built a country for themselves, by your own justifications isn't it their country now?
Post by
OverZealous
Out of curiosity, has anyone read Breivik's manifesto? I'm only glanced through it (it's over 1500 pages long), but it's looking to be an extremely weird and probably sickening read. You can totally tell that he is/was a gamer or at least had the mentality that most gamers have, especially in his whole set up of the organization and all his strategies for assaulting things like nuclear power plants. It sounds like carefully constructed role-play. A role-play that sadly became all too real. There's even the equivalency of a achievement system in there D:
I've taken a few glances this evening. He is utterly insane and lost touch with the real world long ago. Around 95% of what he wrote consisted of facts twisted around or straight down incorrect information. If he believed it, which I believe, I almost pity him. His ignorance is stunning.
He does use Wikipedia as a source an awful lot, too - and it isn't exactly known to be completely accurate one hundred percent of the time.
Post by
Azazel
The youngest identified victim (so far...) is 14.
Post by
Tontons
Meaning that 91% of people who are immigrants to that country, do actually speak at least some of the language.
Did you also find a percentage of russian speakers? I mean - there was a survey few years ago showing that 92% of the population can speak latvian and 96% (!) can speak russian.
It is however said
here
that "71% of ethnic Latvians said they could speak Russian, and 52% of Russians could speak Latvian" and it refers to a census.
So, if you believe that you have the right to your country because your fathers and grandfathers conquered people and built a country for you...and then the Russian people conquered you and built a country for themselves, by your own justifications isn't it their country now?
First - they did not build, they brought it down. Second - no, you are misinterpretating what I said. I said this:
Should we now give it all up with no resistance?
I did not say one gains some rights to a country. I said a country shouldn't be given away.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
That Wikki information was based on a census from 2000. I remember seeing it, then finding the other statistic from a more recent source. I'll see if I can find it again. I should have kept bookmarks.
And, if you are conceeding that you don't have more of a right to your country than they do, and you just don't want to give up part of it to people who speak another language, then we're done arguing the point, I guess. I understand there are people who just don't want to deal with people of another ethnicity. I only argue when they try to justify that they have a right to feel that way, more of a right to a country than the other people do, or have some superiority over other ethnicities in either moral standing or quality of people. If people tell me "I just want to keep what I have, and I don't like them" then there's really nothing to argue.
Post by
Tontons
As I said, we had a census recently, but I haven't seen detailed results anywhere...
Yea, that's pretty much the point. There is only one country in the world where I can speak my language and I want to keep that.
Post by
Skreeran
Related.
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