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What I find hypocritic about Bliz right now
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Post by
ElhonnaDS
I don't mind someone enjoying the 'little grind' as you put it. I don't happen to raid anymore either, I could just see the point more in making the mats themselves harder to get, rather than saying 'do dailies whether you want to or not every single day in order to get this'.
The problem with this logic is it begs the question- why would someone do dailies if they weren't required for certain rewards? You could say why should I raid whether I want to or not, just to get gear? Why should I PvP whether I want to or not, just to get Honor? What kinds of rewards should be available for doing dailies, then? Just ones you wouldn't be interested in? Just rewards no one will be interested in? How is it less fair for someone to have to do dailies to finish collecting their recipes than to have a recipe drop off of a challenging raid boss?
Blizzard likes to reward time spent in the game, because it encourages people to keep paying their subscription fees. They have always rewarded time spent. I'm sorry if you don't have the time to spend to get the rewards you want, but the point of a game is that it is one giant time sink. You don't actually gain anything from playing wow. You spend time and get nothing back. Blizzard has added a lot of different ways for people to waste time on their game- battlegrounds, alts, arenas, raiding, heroics, dailies, etc. No one ends up finishing everything.
I think the reason you seem to be getting such a negative reaction, is that most people don't understand why you're annoyed with this. Any item available through dailies is much more accessible than items available through raiding, arena ranking, or a 1 in 10,000 drop. For most of us, we look at a reward, and the time/activity necessary to attain it, and decide we do want it or we don't. We have the time to go after it, or we don't. It just seems like you're getting really bent out of shape about somethng that most of us take for granted as the nature of the game. It's like saying "How dare they make us do all of this running around bases just to play baseball- I just want to bat. When did they add all this running?"
Off Topic: I need to make an anthology of all my baseball = WoW stuff(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##ElhonnaDS##DELIM##
Post by
Azrile
Three reasons
1. They want to have a way to make current content easier (troll dungeons).
2. Blizzard learned that everyone needs to be advancing their character at endgame.. even if they don´t raid. When people that don´t want to raid aren´t able to advance their character, they unsubscribe.
2. In preparation for the next round of 5-man dungeons.... which will probably require 359 (or at least 353 ilvl to start). The same reason a guild that has cleared the current tier continues to gear up their members... to prepare for the next tier. The troll dungeons were a significant increase in difficulty over the older heroics.. the new 5-mans will probably have the same difficulty jump...
1. Easier for who? the people that don't raid?
2. Your subscribing to the notion that gear equals success/advancement/fun. I've come across many players who when they hit max level go about the other avenues this game provides. The upping of gear isn't required in any of them I am aware of.
3.Most advancements in dungeon/raids are addressed in original dungeons by upping point values. In Wrath, each major patch gave us more valuable emblems which allow players to up their gear. Don't see cata following a different path. As for people who may just want to do dungeons and not raid...fair enough, they shouldn't be hamstrung. Then release plans that produce quality blues.
As I said and it's just my opinion, epics should be a raiding distinction.
Plans that produce epics should drop from bosses and be BOP for that particular craftsmen.
I would add that everyone who is of that particular profession would get the plan, so if a BS epic piece plan dropped, every BS in the raid would get it.
1. YES, easier for people who don´t raid. If my endgame is troll dungeons... then it is GOOD if I can gather gear that will make those troll dungeons easier and easier. It is GOOD if I know that troll dungeons take 45 mins now, but in 2 months I could have them down to 25 mins.
2. Sorry, if you think Gear doesn´t equal advancement in WOW, you are playing the wrong game. People are paying 40k gold right now to advance one gear slot 13 ilvls to make their character very slightly more powerful (advanced). Yeah, there are vanity pets, mounts and acheivements.. but I am sorry to say that 95% of the things you do in game are with one purpose, to advance your gear.
3. I think they learned from wotlk and are improving it. Yes, 5man tokens are a way that players can increase their characters over time, but there is a 4th leg to the stool that I think the devs want to implement (raiding, pvp and 5 man tokens).... that 4th leg is questing.
But in reality, it is pointless to argue with the current system when your only real opinion is that only raiders should get epics. Sorry, that ship has sailed. I have 10 lvl 85s, 8 of which have never, and will never step foot in a raid. Yet in a few weeks, they will all have epics in every slot. More than likely by the time the next xpac comes, those 8 will be sporting gear that crushes the gear players are getting from heroic firelands now. Blizzard is smart, they want 11M subscribers feeling like they are getting stronger every month.
Post by
Magician22773
Of all the issues that I think Blizz has "failed" on in Cata, I don't see this as one of them. Could it be tweaked a little to be better, sure. That pretty much describes everything in WoW however.
I agree the gold award should be higher. I pretty much used the SSO and Tourney dailies as a primary source of income for my toons. This allowed me to have the gold necessary for flight, upgrades, and vanity items without having to farm or play the AH. It was an alternative means to an end, and was a good idea from Blizz. Now, you are pushed more into either endless farming, the occasional extreme demand of some crafted items, or getting a lucky BoE drop, to stay well stocked on gold.
I think somewhere the comparison was shown where the 23ish days it takes to get the crafting recipie is pretty similar, if not much shorter, that the time it would take to get the comparable raid drop.
Blizz has also made some very well-thought improvements to some of these dailies. The fact that you only have to participate in killing most mobs, and not "tag" them is HUGE. Imagine how much longer these would take if had to make the initial tag on all the mobs .
I won't try to hit every point here in the thread. What I will say is that you really need to grow some thicker skin if you are going to post topics like this here. You posted an opinion topic, and then got overly defensive when people did not agree with your opinion. Around here, half the people will disagree with ANYTHING, just to get a rise out of you, and the other half actually do disagree with you, and are going to argue their side of the issue.
Also, I don't believe I read your solution to the percieved problem anywhere here. You say its too much of a grind. So what would be fair? How long should it take?
Post by
193475
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
704301
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
Baseball in Azeroth- Part III- Customer Service
(Not actually aimed at the original topic, just at other conversations going on in this thread)
Customer Service: Hello Sir, how can I help you?
Baseball Player: I have a complaint.
Customer Service: What seems to be the problem?
Baseball player: Well...I noticed that you have purple uniforms and equipment here, that just anyone can buy. I say you selling some on e-bay, to anyone who had the money to buy them. I also saw people advertising that they could make you purple baseball uniforms here, and that there were non-professional games where people could play and actually win purple baseball uniforms.
Customer Service: Yes sir, that's correct.
Baseball Player: Well you see, I play baseball professionally. Like, that's all I do. I'm on a team- and we're really, really good. We can beat anyone. And all of our uniforms are purple.
Customer Service: I'm not following.
Baseball Player: You CAN'T let other people have purple uniforms, because we have them. And we're pro. If they start wearing unifoms that are the same color as ours, they might start thinking that they're actually good at baseball, and they're not. They suck. They shouldn't be allowed to have the same color equipment as us unless they can compete with us.
Customer Service: Well...are they the same uniforms you have? I mean, are people getting the same equipment that your professional team gets you?
Baseball Player: Oh, no. Ours is much nicer. It looks cooler, and it performs much better. And we all have the word "Heroic" written accross our backs in green. Because we play so well, it's heroic- get it? It's like a Charlie-Sheen-winning kind of thing.
Customer Service: Oh- are they using these purple uniforms to, like, try to play in your league games. Like, do they show up and take your spots for your games, because no one can tell the difference between the uniforms?
Baseball Player: Oh, no. For the most part, they're playing smaller games, with their friends. Their games are much easier to win- I could do that in my sleep. And if they do try to come play with us, all of us know what our uniform looks like, so we don't actually let people without it into the game.
Customer Service: Then...I'm not sure what the problem is?
Baseball Player: Don't you see? It doesn't matter that we're playing much more competetive games, and that the equipment we get is much, much better, if the uniforms are the same color. If more than one team has the same color uniforms, then other people might not know we're pro and other people are amateur just at a glance. They'd actually have to inspect our uniforms to know how much better we are. Worse, the other player might start to think that they're actually GOOD at this game.
Customer Service: You have to look at it from our perspective sir. We're a business. We have to make money. The vast majority of people who buy from us aren't going to be playing in professional games, and purple is the in color this season. They spend their money expecting to have fun when they play baseball, and to be able to get the equipment they want. And you'd be surprised how many players who win high school and college level games, or local games with their friends, find it challenging and have a sense of accomplishment when they succeed.
Baseball Player: But they shouldn't! Don't you understand- you shouldn't have a sense of accomplishment just because you won a game that was a challenge for you- you should only have a sense of accomplishment if you win one that's a challenge for ME! And if their uniforms aren't different colors, they'll think that it counts when they win. I bet you let them have trophies, too.
Customer Service: I need to help the next customer, sir.
Baseball Player: Maybe you could dye it all blue. That way it's just as good as what they have now, but you don't have to inspect our uniforms too closely to see how much better we are.
Customer service: Sir, if you're really that interested in standing out, I believe we have a few pieces of orange equipment in the back. Almost no one has orange equipment.
Post by
lonewarrior
Lonewarrior.
2. Your subscribing to the notion that gear equals success/advancement/fun. I've come across many players who when they hit max level go about the other avenues this game provides.
I think his 'notion' as you call it is the correct one. You're falling for I call the "jail fallacy". Some people have fun in prison. They love it. "Three hots and a cot" they say. But jail isn't
designed
to be a happy place. People who are happy in jail are happy despite the design, not because of it.
Some people love to play the AH. But wow is not an AH game; it's a raiding game. Blizzard doesn't have a problem with someone enjoys playing the AH. But they'd never design the game around that reality.
What's your point?
my quote was in response to this.
2. Blizzard learned that everyone needs to be advancing their character at endgame.. even if they don´t raid. When people that don´t want to raid aren't able to advance their character, they unsubscribe.
This person is saying that people that aren't raiding are quitting.
PvP players are not quitting and I know many that don't bother to raid.
I know many players that enjoy gathering mounts..etc.
Trouble with such views is that they are made from a very narrow perspective.
Most players are about their own business and as such find themselves mostly in the company of like minded players.
Being a GM opens you up to what other players are doing across the WoW spectrum.
From such a wider perspective I can see people enjoying this game to whom gear progression is not part of the equation.
But to further elaborate, I agree with your point of what the core of this game is. If you read further up to my earlier posts you see the connections of my quote you posted.
Post by
Azrile
Lonewarrior.
2. Your subscribing to the notion that gear equals success/advancement/fun. I've come across many players who when they hit max level go about the other avenues this game provides.
I think his 'notion' as you call it is the correct one. You're falling for I call the "jail fallacy". Some people have fun in prison. They love it. "Three hots and a cot" they say. But jail isn't
designed
to be a happy place. People who are happy in jail are happy despite the design, not because of it.
Some people love to play the AH. But wow is not an AH game; it's a raiding game. Blizzard doesn't have a problem with someone enjoys playing the AH. But they'd never design the game around that reality.
What's your point?
my quote was in response to this.
2. Blizzard learned that everyone needs to be advancing their character at endgame.. even if they don´t raid. When people that don´t want to raid aren't able to advance their character, they unsubscribe.
This person is saying that people that aren't raiding are quitting.
PvP players are not quitting and I know many that don't bother to raid.
I know many players that enjoy gathering mounts..etc.
Trouble with such views is that they are made from a very narrow perspective.
Most players are about their own business and as such find themselves mostly in the company of like minded players.
Being a GM opens you up to what other players are doing across the WoW spectrum.
From such a wider perspective I can see people enjoying this game to whom gear progression is not part of the equation.
But to further elaborate, I agree with your point of what the core of this game is. If you read further up to my earlier posts you see the connections of my quote you posted.
I did not say they are quitting now. Wotlk (and bc to a lesser degree) solved the problem you quoted by allowing non-raiders ways to advance their characters constantly by doing 5mans (along with the token system). Cata has gone a step further and allowed players to advance their gear by questing. I was referencing more back to the last year of Vanilla, when WOW was becoming known as raid2play.. for over a year, there was NO content added to the game AT ALL except for raids. If you didn´t raid, you had almost nothing left to do. The devs have done a great job of providing three different ways for 3 different type of players to advance their gear (raid, pvp, 5mans).. with this latest patch, they have added questing to the equation.
Post by
Orangutan
I'm sorry but an hour a day(or less at the beginning) for 32 days is a grind.
I leveled a Holy Priest from 1-60 in Vanilla. You have no idea what a grind is.
As for everything else, you posted on a public forum. Did you really think everyone would just come in say "I agree." or perhaps "Thank you for posting your opinion"? If people think you're wrong, and a lot of us do seem to, then people will share with you why they think you're wrong. Honestly, be glad you did it here, since the Wowhead community is generally pretty level-headed and well-spoken. I can only imagine the results you'd have gotten on the Official forums.
Now, share with us exactly how you're being forced into doing dailies.
Post by
193475
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Cambo
I'm sorry Berndorf, you will never ever ever ever ever be able to have a debate on the internet.
I can't understand why you are upset. You put your opinion out there, and people responded as they found fit. If you go on a street corner and pronounce your opinion about racial segregation, rapist castration, or any other hot topic you will get the same response.
Post by
Sweetscot
I think this is just a classic case of tone not translating well in text.
Read his posts to yourself in a monotone without the assumption that he is upset.
Also, alot of the posts at first were RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE over the word hypocrit and whether it was a "worthy" post...which is always annoying cuz if you think it isn't worthy just don't respond imo.
Post by
ZombieJesus
Just buy the weapons, they sell for 11-15k gold.
You can farm 11k gold in like 3 days, so why not do that instead of farm the bloody dailies?
Post by
164232
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Dragoonman
I'm sorry Berndorf, you will never ever ever ever ever be able to have a debate on the internet.
I can't understand why you are upset. You put your opinion out there, and people responded as they found fit. If you go on a street corner and pronounce your opinion about racial segregation, rapist castration, or any other hot topic you will get the same response.
That isn't true :D
The internet lets people speak anonymously without care. That is why people are brave enough to troll, because no one knows who they are.
If you were on a street corner, those who debate you would choose their words very carefully, or not say anything at all as they run the risk of some sort of social suicide.
If he were to bring up this point at some sort of convention in which humans attended and had to have a spotlight put on them when they spoke in which everyone knew who was talking, the debate would be more civilized and would probably end up in some sort of stalemate since many who have an answer are too scared to say anything.
And you said it yourself at the start of this quote, "You will never ever ever ever ever be able to have a debate on the internet." You specifically pointed out that this is the internet, and anything goes. But then you said the same thing would happen on a street corner where people are seen and no longer anonymous. Terrible.
On topic... I don't think it is hypocritical. I just think it makes no sense. I don't think there should be this sort of long grind, but instead a grind that has you do one set of dailies one day, then move onto another set the next until you run out of dailies and finally complete the entire chain and unlock all of the vendors. Having a mark limit is terrible and becomes monotonous.
I was here during Vanilla and THAT was just AWFUL. Spending a month just to get to level 33 was fun, but so terribly boring at times. The only thing that kept me going was the sense of wonder and newness, because nothing else like WoW existed at that time. But now, we are all used to WoW and to have us grind when the sense of wonder has disappeared is a mistake. That is part of the reason they lost 600k subscribers, they were bored and that feeling of freshness excitement and wonder disappeared since no new revolutionizing system/lore has been added. BC added things that people never imagined and provided a new sense of wonder. Wotlk added a system that allowed casuals to experience things without having to work their butts off, that added a sense of wonder because casuals never got to experience raiding and its cool cinematics. Then Cataclysm came... What new fresh thing was added that no one ever got to experience before? Archaeology? LOLOLOLOLOL. No, nothing specifically new and fresh was added. Even the Path of Titans was scrapped and it seemed like the best idea ever!
People are bored now because we have nothing new and incredible that no one has been able to experience in the past that has a feeling of awesomeness that last a long time. They blew it on Cataclysm's release. Nothing revolutionary, new, or completely unexpected and unimagined was added. Instead, they made raiding harder which DISCOURAGED the casuals who raided in Wotlk. New dailies that you repeat for several days just to unlock a little gear that is meant for raiding but is meant for non-raiders is not only terrible circular reasoning, but also won't cut it. I don't want to believe Blizzard has lost their touch yet, but Cataclysm definitely should be looked at as a mistake they should come back from.
Blizzard needs to add new and unexpected things to the game that makes it feel fresh like they did in every other expansion. Without said new unexpected thing that revolutionizes MMOs, people will be bored and continue to leave. New raids with the same basic fight mechanics and small cinematics and new dailies they have you complete over and over again to gain a specific large amount of marks for mediocre awards and patterns will not ever cut it. It will lead to more whining and boredum, which will lead to more unsubscribing.
TL;DR: WoW is boring now because nothing incredibly fresh and revolutionary has been added with Cataclysm. It was a huge flop. We know this because everyone complains that they are bored of the same old same old that we experienced in Wotlk. I'm sure Blizzard knows this fact and are working on doing something unexpected and fresh that should keep people interested. However, right now, just adding a new raid with the same old fight mechanics and new dailies that require you to grind away at to get a large number of marks that eventually lead to mediocre awards won't cut it.
Idea: They should add something that was never expected for casual players who don't raid. Those are the ones who most likely make up the majority. Some sort of new thing that is as epic as Arena or Raiding that is experienced only by avid questers perhaps. New gear awarded from questing just so you can go on to complete even harder quest at max level that award new stuff. THAT would keep me busy for a while! Completing exceedingly hard quest which gives me rewards that allows me to move on to harder quest would be great!
Post by
704301
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
438555
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Atik
Completing exceedingly hard quest which gives me rewards that allows me to move on to harder quest would be great!
That's called leveling.
Also known as the most enjoyable part of the game in its current state.
Post by
Azrile
Completing exceedingly hard quest which gives me rewards that allows me to move on to harder quest would be great!
That's called leveling.
I think you are missing the point that Blizzard is trying to make. Questing CAN get progressively harder. Many of the mobs you are asked to kill now have 150k hps, compared to 60k in twilight highlands. They are also hitting harder and have more big ávoidables´.. There are also fairly involved quests like the one where you have to deactive the 8 runes inside the cave.
Blizzard is trying to create ´leveling´ past lvl 85 even for people who don´t even want to do heroic 5 mans.
Blizzard has 11M subscribers specifically because of their efforts to allow players of all playstyles to advance their characters. Fireland dailies are exactly that.. they are quests for people who won´t be grinding a ton of valor, so the 365 craftables and 365 rewards are their endgame.
Post by
Cambo
If he were to bring up this point at some sort of convention in which humans attended and had to have a spotlight put on them when they spoke in which everyone knew who was talking, the debate would be more civilized and would probably end up in some sort of stalemate since many who have an answer are too scared to say anything.
And you said it yourself at the start of this quote, "You will never ever ever ever ever be able to have a debate on the internet." You specifically pointed out that this is the internet, and anything goes. But then you said the same thing would happen on a street corner where people are seen and no longer anonymous. Terrible.
No no no... you don't understand. There is a difference between an argument/heated disagreement and debating. You won't get a formal discussion (debate) on a videogame forum.
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