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Trinket advice
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Post by
Aris
@Orranis
I've never read anything from anywhere about stacking DS shields. I've read your DS guide in the past, and have just read it again. It also mentions nothing about this under the DS section. Your guide states it only builds a shield off the 5 seconds previous to the DS. You seem to be contradicting your DS guide written earlier.
As for the RNG avoidance vs RNG mastery, again its the classic mitigation vs avoidance debate. It's been argued to death over for years now, and i really don't care to argue it further.
If i had a choice between static mastery with an avoidance proc, and a static avoidance stat with a mastery proc, i would choose the former. I'd rather have more mastery all the time so that when i time my DS's i always have that bonus, and then when things get hairy i can pop it for some extra avoidance. I don't want my mastery (or more precisely mitigation) to be random. I want stable mitigation and random avoidance.
@Zakkhar
I claim an "on use" trinket is preferred, because then you have control over when it is used. You can either use it every time it becomes available, or save it for when you deem it provides the best benefit for you in your specific instance. Are you trying to argue this is worse than a 10% chance "on hit" proc?
Mastery is the best stat for a DK, i never claimed it was worth less than avoidance. I only stated that certain trinket proc types are less beneficial than other trinket proc types. So then you get into quandaries like the one we have here. Where you have an option of a trinket with the best proc type "on use" with a secondary stat like dodge, vs our primary stat mastery with a less than optimal proc type like "on hit". This is the grey area that we seem to be arguing.
I deny myself 1.5% avoidance to gain 13% increased chance that my carefully timed DS's land when i want them to land to attempt to maximize my DS shields from mastery. So in my mind, i am not giving up avoidance for expertise, i am giving up avoidance for mastery. Or more accurately, I'm giving up avoidance for more precise use of the mastery i have. Making my mastery (mitigation) more stable.
I prefer a proc type of avoiding a hit to gain additional avoidance because then i know when i get that bonus i will have something attacking me. Whereas with the crab, i could have nothing attacking me or doing damage to me when it procs because it procs on hit. Now if the crab proc'd when i get hit, then i'd be more likely to prefer it over throngus.
Again, it seems like you think i prefer avoidance over mastery when in fact the reason i choose one over the other has more to do with the way the trinket procs and less with the stat i receive when it does proc. While dodge may be a secondary stat to mastery, it is still a good stat. I would prefer to have my rank 2 stat on a better proc type than my rank 1 stat on a worse proc type.
Post by
apocalypsa
Aris, DS shields do indeed stack after a patch. The avoidance vs expertise is a preference thing, I think - avoidance is better for your healers in the end, but expertise makes for much smoother tanking(and less initial threat problems).
I fully agree that Porcelain Crab is bad, though. Okay, bad choice of words. Its not a terrible trinket, but it is very badly designed. It can proc when you have an avoidance streak, thus proccing the ICD and negating part of the proc. The thing is, it has the best itemization of all 346 trinkets by far - only Throngus's Finger comes remotely close, all others have stam or armor.(or crappy health on uses) so its still the best pre-raid trinket.
Post by
DraconisAerius
Where does DMC:Earthquake come into it? I currently have that and Impetuous Query.
Post by
apocalypsa
Where does DMC:Earthquake come into it? I currently have that and Impetuous Query.
The "very bad" zone. Health on uses are pretty much worthless.
Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
apocalypsa
Zakkhar, seriously, STOP THE %^&*ING PERSONAL ATTACKS. In general, guys, stop is useless discussion or continue it in its own thread. You have been derailing threads into this for the past 2 weeks now, almost every thread with even a hint to the subject.
Post by
DraconisAerius
Zakkhar, seriously, STOP THE %^&*ING PERSONAL ATTACKS. In general, guys, stop is useless discussion or continue it in its own thread. You have been derailing threads into this for the past 2 weeks now, almost every thread with even a hint to the subject.
^ Why I left these forums in the first place, but frankly the sheer lack of information else where forced me to come back.
Post by
Aris
Aris, DS shields do indeed stack after a patch. The avoidance vs expertise is a preference thing, I think - avoidance is better for your healers in the end, but expertise makes for much smoother tanking(and less initial threat problems).
Can you explain how they stack? I've never heard this before, and i don't see how it would work. It's not even mentioned in the DS guide on this forum.
You have control when its "used", but its not guaranteed it will give you any benefits.
The stat is not in question, only the way in which the stat is proc'd. "on use" is the best way to proc a stat on a trinket because you control when and how it is proc'd instead of a predetermined method that may or may not fully exploit the stats it gives.
Mastery is the best stat for a DK, i never claimed it was worth less than avoidance.Yes, you stated that and you havent backed it up with anything
Please show me where i ever stated mastery was not the best stat for a DK. I'd love to see it.
1. You claim mastery is better than avoidance.
2. You claim that trinkets on use are better than proc trinkets.
3. Yet you claim Throngus finger is better than Porcelain Crab (which means avoidance on proc is better than mastery on proc). Contradicting 1.
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes and No
Yes i think Throngus finger is better than Porcelain Crab but that does not mean i think avoidance is better than mastery. I think the way in which the stat is proc'd on throngus is better than the way the stat on crab is proc'd. I prefer the method of proc, not the stat. So no it does not contradict 1.
I really just do not like "on hit" for a tanking proc. It's more of a dps proc. I want an "on use" or a health % proc, or a "when you get hit" proc, or a "when you avoid a hit" proc. Something that proves your being attacked, hence "tanking". The only thing "on hit" proves is your attacking something.
20s of not getting hit? Highly unlikely in raid situation.
I never once said this was for raid content only. Also i have numerous times a day when i take little to no damage from a boss for 20 seconds or more.
stop this useless discussion or continue it in its own thread. You have been derailing threads into this for the past 2 weeks now, almost every thread with even a hint to the subject.
While i agree he seems to follow me around and side track threads for a personal vendetta he seems to be on right now, the topic of this thread is "Trinket Advice" and we are discussing the merits of two of the best pre raid tanking trinkets. So we're really not off topic on this thread. Though he did derail a couple of other threads into off topic oblivion.
Post by
apocalypsa
Blood Shields stack. How? If you DS while theres still a BS, it gets added.
If Death Strike is used while a Blood Shield is already active, the new absorb will stack with the old one instead of replacing it.
Post by
Aris
If Death Strike is used while a Blood Shield is already active, the new absorb will stack with the old one instead of replacing it.
But if you still have a blood shield up, then you wouldn't have taken any damage in the last 5 seconds, so you'd only get the minimum blood shield amount. Which is a negligible amount.
This would suggest your spamming DS instead of timing it properly for after you take a large amount of damage in the last 5 seconds. Which is counterproductive and doesn't maximize your blood shields.
Post by
Aris
Had to go test something out, because i wasn't sure.
It seems when you use a DS while you already have a blood shield up, it refreshes the blood shield timer. So you could then build up a bunch of minimum DS blood shields while your not being attacked, and then have a huge blood shield when you start getting attacked again?
Is that right, or am i missing something?
EDIT: Based on my maximum health that would be around 12-13k minimum blood shields in raids, and 10-11k blood shields in a 5man.
But you would have to know when your going to start taking damage again for it to really be useful. I mean if your not taking damage for a while and use your DS's for say a 20-30k blood shield, and then immediately afterwords while your runes are on cooldown you take 50-100k worth of damage, you pretty much just wasted a huge potential blood shield.
Like it would work on Argoloth because you and another tank trade back n forth on pretty much a consistent timing.
Post by
DraconisAerius
If Death Strike is used while a Blood Shield is already active, the new absorb will stack with the old one instead of replacing it.
But if you still have a blood shield up, then you wouldn't have taken any damage in the last 5 seconds, so you'd only get the minimum blood shield amount. Which is a negligible amount.
This would suggest your spamming DS instead of timing it properly for after you take a large amount of damage in the last 5 seconds. Which is counterproductive and doesn't maximize your blood shields.
Not true. Say you take a melee hit and a hit from magic damage totaling, say, 80k damage, and all your runes were ready to use, you could pop 2 DS in a row, use your ERW, and pop 2 more, all within the time frame, causing the Blood Shield to stack to a massive level. Obviously this situation would not be something that happens alot, but given the predicatbility of raid bosses, plus the timers of DBM, you could save your runes specifically for a high damage mechanic and use this strat, giving your healers a precious few second extra to get you out of the "Oh @#$%" zone of health.
The "very bad" zone. Health on uses are pretty much worthless.
I currently have it macro'd to Vampiric Blood (which is unglyphed atm) so if I really need it I hit that macro, then Rune Tap, which is a % of your max health. It comes down to drops and how much time I have available to dedicate to farming rep etc. I'll just have to keep using it till I can get an upgrade, which given several factors will most likely be the other side of 4.2's release.
Post by
Aris
Not true. Say you take a melee hit and a hit from magic damage totaling, say, 80k damage, and all your runes were ready to use, you could pop 2 DS in a row, use your ERW, and pop 2 more, all within the time frame, causing the Blood Shield to stack to a massive level.
Isn't there a 1.5 second GCD? And then lag/reaction times?
Post by
apocalypsa
Not true. Say you take a melee hit and a hit from magic damage totaling, say, 80k damage, and all your runes were ready to use, you could pop 2 DS in a row, use your ERW, and pop 2 more, all within the time frame, causing the Blood Shield to stack to a massive level.
Isn't there a 1.5 second GCD? And then lag/reaction times?
Yes and no. Anyone serious about gaming has under 200ms or knows how to cope with higher. But are you seriously trying to discuss wether Blood Shield stacking can be useful ever?
One tip: offtanking.
Post by
Aris
Not true. Say you take a melee hit and a hit from magic damage totaling, say, 80k damage, and all your runes were ready to use, you could pop 2 DS in a row, use your ERW, and pop 2 more, all within the time frame, causing the Blood Shield to stack to a massive level.
Isn't there a 1.5 second GCD? And then lag/reaction times?
Yes and no. Anyone serious about gaming has under 200ms or knows how to cope with higher. But are you seriously trying to discuss wether Blood Shield stacking can be useful ever?
One tip: offtanking.
No i'm saying can you physically get 4x DS's into the timespan of a 5 second window if there is a 1.5second GCD per use of DS? That would be a theoretical max of 3, and if you factor in a normal persons reaction time and lag your looking at 2.
Obviously when offtanking and not taking damage you can stack up a pretty big shield that is ready to go when you start taking damage again. IE: argaloth.
Post by
Orranis
@Orranis
I've never read anything from anywhere about stacking DS shields. I've read your DS guide in the past, and have just read it again. It also mentions nothing about this under the DS section. Your guide states it only builds a shield off the 5 seconds previous to the DS. You seem to be contradicting your DS guide written earlier.
/facepalm
It's called the
advanced
guide. It assumes you know a couple things, like that Bloodshields stack, that Death Runes cost a Frost and Unholy rune, and that you're not supposed to Heart Strike with Death Runes.
As for the RNG avoidance vs RNG mastery, again its the classic mitigation vs avoidance debate. It's been argued to death over for years now, and i really don't care to argue it further.
It's not just a question of mastery vs. avoidance. The crab is actually objectively better. (1710*12)/60 gives you 342 averaged out dodge. (1710*20)/80 gives you 428 averaged out mastery.
If i had a choice between static mastery with an avoidance proc, and a static avoidance stat with a mastery proc, i would choose the former. I'd rather have more mastery all the time so that when i time my DS's i always have that bonus, and then when things get hairy i can pop it for some extra avoidance. I don't want my mastery (or more precisely mitigation) to be random. I want stable mitigation and random avoidance.
There's no static mastery on either of the trinkets. Both of them are passive, you're not popping anything.
Blood Shield stacking is a
humongous
bonus. Besides for just off-tanking, it means that after a period of high damage, you can use it to double dip with two Death Strikes (between RE and BT, this is not impossible if not altogether common). Furthermore, you're never going to see a high enough blood shield that it will survive and you can stack two non-consecutive Death Strike Shields.
Post by
Aris
I'm going to attempt to do some math based on a number of assumptions. Let me know what you think.
1710 mastery rating is 9.55 mastery points. Which is almost 60% more blood shield based on amount healed.
DS heals for 65% of the damage taken in the last 5 seconds when you have the talent, which everyone should. So 60% of 65% of the damage taken in the last 5 seconds would be 39% of the damage taken in the last 5 seconds increase in blood shield from the trinket.
A boss attacks once every 1.8 seconds (got that from Orranis' guide), and with around 30% avoidance you should get hit on average 1.944 times in 5 seconds. Lets say twice in 5 seconds. The mastery shield only effects physical damage, just like dodge. So we don't have to worry about spells. Only when the boss hits us with a physical attack. We can't be hit with a crit or crushing blow anymore, and parry hasted attacks no longer exist, so we don't have to worry about those things.
So for average damage lets assume you are being attacked by just 1 boss (which is the case most of the time), and he hits you twice in 5 seconds. Lets also assume we are talking about a non heroic raid boss, since this is a blue 346 item your probably going to have a stam trinket for heroic raid content so normal raid content is about as difficult as you would ideally still be using this trinket for. Lets also say this is 25man content, mostly because thats what i have world of log reports for on hand.
So i looked up the last 25man BWD our guild posted up on world of logs. For nefarian, his average melee hits were for 29497 damage over 293 hits and for onyxia they were 28815 damage over 300 hits. So a fairly large pool to get a good average from.
So lets round up and say an average of 30k damage per melee hit to make it easy. 2 hits in 5 seconds would be 60k damage. 39% of which is 23.4k extra damage mitigated per DS swing from the trinket proc. We can get 2-3 DS's in per proc depending on when it procs in your rotation, so lets average that out to 2.5 swings (assuming none of them miss). Which means we mitigate on average 58.5k damage per proc.
Factoring in the 10% chance on hit for the trinket to proc, it would proc around once every 110 seconds. With a hit from the boss every 1.8 seconds that would be around 61 hits taken before the trinket would be able to proc again. Which would mean you would take 1.83 million damage in 110 seconds, and mitigate 58.5k of it.
That comes out to 3.2% damage mitigation.
EJ recommends that you should have enough health to survive 3 hits from a boss before you get a heal without die'ing. Based on this they suggest 175k health for non heroic raid content. If it was 40k damage a hit you could take 4 and survive, and if you take 60k damage a hit you would die after the third. So lets assume they mean 50k damage hits.
Based on the 50k damage a hit extrapolated from EJ's recommended health amount for non heroic raid content. That would be 3.05mil damage over 110 seconds with 97.5k of it absorbed with 2.5 DS's.
With EJ's extrapolated damage per hit: 3.2% damage mitigation which is the same amount i got.
So then this trinket has an average mitigation of 3.2% assuming you don't miss/be dodged/be parried on your DS strikes during the proc.
If we factor in that most people have zero hit or expertise, then your chance to miss/be dodge/be parried would be 28.5%. So 71.5% chance of landing your DS out of 2.5 average DS's per proc based on when in your rotation it procs would put you at 1.8 DS's per proc.
With no hit/expertise:
That would drop you down to 2.3% average mitigation.
With just the expertise soft cap you would go up to a 84.5% chance to land your DS's which would give you an average of 2.1 DS's.
With Expertise Soft cap:
That would make your average mitigation 2.7%
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Now avoidance over the long haul works the same as mitigation, only it's spiky instead of steady. But over time 1% of avoidance will eventually even out to 1% mitigation.
So then 1710 dodge rating after DR for me ends up being 7.11% avoidance.
Throngus's Finger has an internal cooldown of 60 seconds that procs off of parry. Lets say you have 15% parry, so then its a 15% proc chance every 1.8seconds after the 60 second cooldown. So around once every 71 seconds.
7% avoidance for 12 seconds every 71 seconds is 1.2% average avoidance.
Over the long haul that will be 1.2% damage mitigated.
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If i had not known about blood shield stacking, i probably would still lean towards the avoidance trinket only because of the chance of the crab being useless. Up until now it likely would have been useless to me in those scenario's because i did not know i could stack up blood shields while not taking damage. This one fact will alter the way i play.
If i also factor in that the crab gives static dodge vs the throngus's static parry which will be effected by DR more and then looking at the math i would have to say that
Porcelain Crab
is slightly better than
Throngus's Finger
.
This is assuming my math isn't horrible wrong. Please let me know if it is.
EDIT: see 2 posts down for a math fix.
Post by
Aris
It's called the
advanced
guide. It assumes you know a couple things, like that Bloodshields stack,
It didn't used to stack before last patch, and i read forums and guides online about my class often. So if i haven't heard of it yet, I'm pretty sure its not common knowledge. It should be in your guide.
EJ doesn't mention it in their DK tanking section, and a site they link to specifically states that it doesn't stack. So I'm sure I'm not the only one that hasn't realized the change yet.
EDIT: Also if you goto the stickies on this forum, they have 3 links to DK tanking threads. One is before blood shield stacking was possible, one is about pulling, and the third is yours which you don't mention is because you think it's common knowledge.
So if the DK wowhead forum doesn't mention it, and EJ doesn't mention it, and sites EJ links to either don't mention it or specifically says you cant stack them. How exactly does it become common knowledge?
Post by
Aris
I think i just noticed an error in the math while i was reading it over after i posted it.
If all 4 ice/unholy rules were available when it procs, you could get in 2 for the damage you took in the last 5 seconds (since they stack). And then 8 seconds later another one for 60k, since your first shield should have worn off in that time span, and then a 4th in 8 seconds after that right before it runs out.
So you could get up to 4 DS's in 20 seconds.
But Lets say you just used your runes. 8 seconds into the proc you use your first DS, 8 seconds after that a second. So still a minimum of 2.
But this makes the average before misses 3 instead of 2.5.
With zero hit/expertise it would be 2.145
With expertise soft cap it would be 2.535
2.7% mitigation with zero hit/expertise
3.2% with expertise soft cap.
Post by
Aris
With 175k health, minimum blood shield increases would be around 7.1k per DS.
15.2k increase in stacking shield with no hit/exp during 20sec proc.
18k increase in stacking shield with exp soft cap during 20sec proc.
So even if not being attacked directly you can build up a shield with it that can then absorb additional damage when you do start getting hit by physical attacks again.
Granted if your not being attacked throngus wouldn't proc at all. So 15-18k absorbed even if rarely is better than nothing.
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