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War in Lordaeron
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Post by
Adamsm
No, you really haven't; you are defending the fact that Sylvanas uses a weapon of mass destruction like it's okay, and then you vilify the Alliance for not thinking ahead that the Qullboar are really the enemy of the Tauren.
Post by
4dehorde
Taurajo and Southshore are not the same. Taurajo had nothing to do with the army. That was the Crossroads. And regardless, the Alliance could have attacked it without conducting a massacre.Taurajo was a major supply line, however, and a bulwark blocking the siege at Mulgore. Again, it's a strategic move. I know that the Alliance were wrong at Taurajo, and they were stupid for expecting criminals to act civilised, but at least the leader responsible, according to himself anyway, tried to leave a line open for civilians to flee through.
The vanilla version of "The Battle of Hillsbrad" shows us how the humans at Hillsbrad Fields earned the Forsaken's ire.Oh, you mean the handful? Because 6 or 7 humans killing a couple of Forsaken outrunners justifies the plague bombing of an entire town.
Kindly provide a reference that shows me when I made it look so black and white. I've already said I know killing the survivors on Fenris Isle was wrong, and invading Gilneas was wrong, but understandable, at least to the strategic degree. I pointed out the Alliance has a legitimate claim to Lordaeron, but their tactics have only made the Forsaken fight harder.Your tone in posts like this: "Since when is defending your homeland and protecting your people evil? You must be mistaking this for the Alliance massacre at Taurajo."
Most of what I've seen thus far from you is "The Forsaken are evil, the Alliance is holy".Which couldn't be further from the truth, as I've always argued the faults of both sides. The difference is that the Forsaken are highly morally ambiguous, as of yet the Alliance doesn't have a race that is willing to use chemical warfare and corrupting the conquered people of the Horde's regions (by this, I am of course referring to the resurrection of the fallen, which
is
a Scourge tactic).Both are at fault.
We've both agreed on this before.
That quest only documents the known accounts. Objectively, one has to understand it was far more than just several Alliance vigilantes running around. Just like the the quest "Honoring the Dead". You are only required to perform last rites for 4 dead villagers, when we all know that many more than that numer died. Just like how the population of Stormwind is 250,000. They are not going to put 250,000 npcs in the game.
When people point out the flaws in the Forsaken, I counter by showing the Alliance flaws. That is part of a debate.
I certainly have not seen that from you, at least not for the last several posts. Sure, the Horde has done some wrong, but one must never overlook what the other side has done. That makes that person appear very biased. I've been trying to point out the standpoints of both sides in this thread and the last one.
Post by
4dehorde
No, you really haven't; you are defending the fact that Sylvanas uses a weapon of mass destruction like it's okay, and then you vilify the Alliance for not thinking ahead that the Qullboar are really the enemy of the Tauren.
Did I ever say it is okay to use the blight? I know it is wrong to do that and I have never tried to justify it. I've just explained the Forsaken's reasons for deploying it. That doesn't make it right, but they have good reasons.
At the same time, I do point out the Alliance's evil at Taurajo. Both of these instances show both sides at their worst.
Post by
Patty
<link removed>(##RESPBREAK##)12##DELIM##Gnub##DELIM##No... just... no.
Post by
Adamsm
No, you really haven't; you are defending the fact that Sylvanas uses a weapon of mass destruction like it's okay, and then you vilify the Alliance for not thinking ahead that the Qullboar are really the enemy of the Tauren.
Did I ever say it is okay to use the blight? I know it is wrong to do that and I have never tried to justify it.
I've just explained the Forsaken's reasons for deploying it. That doesn't make it right, but they have good reasons.
At the same time, I do point out the Alliance's evil at Taurajo. Both of these instances show both sides at their worst.
Read the bolded part there and keep saying you are completely objective about this.....
Post by
4dehorde
That quest only documents the known accounts. Objectively, one has to understand it was far more than just several Alliance vigilantes running around. However, it's just as inaccurate to then imply that a majority in Hillsbrad were killing the Forsaken.
When people point out the flaws in the Forsaken, I counter by showing the Alliance flaws. That is part of a debate.But you don't concede on a lot of the wrong that the Forsaken
have
done.
Sure, the Horde has done some wrong, but one must never overlook what the other side has done.I don't, but every little thing that the Alliance and Horde have ever done that may be morally ambiguous is irrelevant to the topic of discussion. That makes that person appear very biased.Anyone with an opinion on something is biased.
Ever since vanilla, the humans at Hillsbrad Fields were resppnsible for illdoings against the Forsaken. No matter how few or large in number they were, even one was enough to provoke an attack. Not outright destruction, but an attack in retaliation. No one can really expect the man to keep poking the lion and the beast not do anything about it.
Maybe I don't concede
that
much, but I am explaining the reasons behind the Forsaken attacks. I have admitted their tactics are harsh while also explaining how they were provoked the Alliance. I have continually shown how both sides are at fault.
It is relevant. The war in Lordaeron is just part of this whole Alliance-Horde War.
But there is a limit. At one point, one can become so biased they turn into a zealot.
Post by
4dehorde
No, you really haven't; you are defending the fact that Sylvanas uses a weapon of mass destruction like it's okay, and then you vilify the Alliance for not thinking ahead that the Qullboar are really the enemy of the Tauren.
Did I ever say it is okay to use the blight? I know it is wrong to do that and I have never tried to justify it.
I've just explained the Forsaken's reasons for deploying it. That doesn't make it right, but they have good reasons.
At the same time, I do point out the Alliance's evil at Taurajo. Both of these instances show both sides at their worst.
Read the bolded part there and keep saying you are completely objective about this.....
I can keep saying I am being objective. Just like the Alliance had their reasons for attacking Taurajo, the Forsaken had their reasons for using the blight. Try reading that again and say I always praise the Horde and condemn the Alliance. I am really beginning to question where you are coming from in all this.
Post by
Adamsm
Well lets see, you just said that the Forsaken have a good reason for using a weapon that makes the flesh literally melt from your bones, but then call an assault on a town that was built at the entrance to Mulgore where the Alliance commander ordered his men to leave openings for non-combatants to flee through 'evil'....yeah.
My point is: You have a very Horde bias there, and refuse to admit that they do any evil. You then call those who disagree with your 'point' as ignorant, idiots, Alliance fanbois, Alliance lovers and the like, when in all honesty, you are just that. Seriously, if you are going to debate, you'll actually need to concede points and not use dumb metaphors such as comparing leaders of the Alliance to Nazis.....
Post by
Patty
I can keep saying I am being objective. Just like the Alliance had their reasons for attacking Taurajo, the Forsaken had their reasons for using the blight. Try reading that again and say I always praise the Horde and condemn the Alliance. I am really beginning to question where you are coming from in all this.
However, you call Taurajo a massacre, yet don't accept that Southshore or the Sludge Fields were also massacres.
Post by
4dehorde
Well lets see, you just said that the Forsaken have a good reason for using a weapon that makes the flesh literally melt from your bones, but then call an assault on a town that was built at the entrance to Mulgore where the Alliance commander ordered his men to leave openings for non-combatants to flee through 'evil'....yeah.
My point is: You have a very Horde bias there, and refuse to admit that they do any evil. You then call those who disagree with your 'point' as ignorant, idiots, Alliance fanbois, Alliance lovers and the like, when in all honesty, you are just that. Seriously, if you are going to debate, you'll actually need to concede points and not use dumb metaphors such as comparing leaders of the Alliance to Nazis.....
The Alliance is trying to conquer Lordaeron, take it away from its people. The Forsaken are doing everything they can to stop Alliance expansionism. So yes, using the blight to save themselves is acceptable. It is vile, and wrong, but they have been backed into a corner. Its either fight or be conquered.
The Alliance sought to destroy Taurajo to cut off a supposed Horde supply line and gain another foothold in a warzone. That is fine. The general may have intended to let civilians escape, but his soldiers, ex-criminals at that, disobeyed his orders and attacked anything that moved. That part is not fine, that is wrong.
You can keep claiming I refuse to admit both sides are at fault, but just because you say something that doesn't make it true. You are content to condemn anyone who has a single view that differs from your own as overly biased and an idiot. If you are going to debate, you need to consider both sides and accept not everyone is going to be just like you. If you cannot do that, then I have nothing more to say to you.
Post by
Adamsm
You are content to condemn anyone who has a single view that differs from your own as overly biased and an idiot.No, that is what you are doing.
If you are going to debate, you ned to consider both sides and accept not everyone is going to be just like you.Which I still have yet to see you do.
If you cannot do that, then I have nothing more to say to you.Very mature.
All in all; this topic has been discussed to death long before you showed up, and the fact that it was revived and goes the same way as all those topics just shows there is no true answer beyond the fact that war is bad.
Post by
4dehorde
I can keep saying I am being objective. Just like the Alliance had their reasons for attacking Taurajo, the Forsaken had their reasons for using the blight. Try reading that again and say I always praise the Horde and condemn the Alliance. I am really beginning to question where you are coming from in all this.
However, you call Taurajo a massacre, yet don't accept that Southshore or the Sludge Fields were also massacres.
Because unlike Taurajo, where the Aliance soldiers struck at anyone they saw, and left nearly a hundred (85-90% of the population) dead, the people in Southshore and Hillsbrad, for the most part, escaped the Forsaken onslaught. The fact that some were killed later is irrelevant. The fact that they escaped while most at Taurajo did not shows the two circumstances are different.
Both the sets of attacks were understandable, because this is war, but instead of just destorying or conquering the town, the Alliance killed everyone they could. Where as over in Hillsbrad, the Forsaken focused more on destroying the threat than killing innocents. At least in the attack itself.
Once again, both sides did wrong in both instances, but because of the way the attack on Taurajo was conducted, that makes it a massacre.
Post by
4dehorde
You are content to condemn anyone who has a single view that differs from your own as overly biased and an idiot.No, that is what you are doing.
If you are going to debate, you ned to consider both sides and accept not everyone is going to be just like you.Which I still have yet to see you do.
If you cannot do that, then I have nothing more to say to you.Very mature.
All in all; this topic has been discussed to death long before you showed up, and the fact that it was revived and goes the same way as all those topics just shows there is no true answer beyond the fact that war is bad.
I'm done with you. Anything you do, you turn around and accuse me of. You cannot grasp the simple truth, people don't have to agree with you. I will not waste anymore time trying to talk sense into you. So do us both a favor and do not address me anymore. I have no more time or patience for you. Someone who has no understanding of tolerance is not worth my attention. Perhaps one day you will learn to accept opinions that are not your own, but I doubt it.
Post by
Adamsm
The Scourge seek to destroy all life, the Forsaken seek to destroy the threats to their people (The Scarlets and the Alliance invaders).
Because Gilneas were invading...
The Forsaken were ordered into Gilneas and that conflict had been brewing for awhile. It doesn't justify the invasion, but what's done is done. It is the only example I can think of where the Forsaken attacked unprovoked.
Well other then Hillsbrad and Arathi of course.
How ignorant can you be? They were provoked in Hillsbrad after years of Alliance aggression and I seem to recall the Alliance and the Horde are at war. Stromgarde is part of the Alliance, and liable to an attack by the Horde.
I'm sorry, but after calling me ignorant, do you really think you deserve to take the high road? Especially as I haven't insulted you once in this entire thread.
And you are correct; there is no point bashing your head against a wall as that's what pretty much every single 'discussion' of yours has turned into. You may say you have opinions for both sides, but you don't; it's all just Horde fanism, and Alliance vilifying.
Post by
Patty
I can keep saying I am being objective. Just like the Alliance had their reasons for attacking Taurajo, the Forsaken had their reasons for using the blight. Try reading that again and say I always praise the Horde and condemn the Alliance. I am really beginning to question where you are coming from in all this.
However, you call Taurajo a massacre, yet don't accept that Southshore or the Sludge Fields were also massacres.
Because unlike Taurajo, where the Aliance soldiers struck at anyone they saw, and left nearly a hundred (85-90% of the population) dead,
107.5% of statistics are made up on the spot.
What is your name, <class>? <name>?
Welcome to the Barrens. You are standing at the vanguard of our most important operations on this continent. I would be honored if you were to lend us your strength.
Gossip: Tell me what happened at Taurajo.
Ah yes, our assault on the Horde town of Taurajo. I struggled with the implications of the decision.
Taurajo was admittedly what you might call a 'soft target,' primarily a hunters' camp. Still, it had been used to recruit, equip, and train Horde infantry for many years.
When our scouts reported that Taurajo's most dangerous units were out on the hunt, we had to act quickly.
Gossip: We sacked the town?
<Hawthorne wrinkles his brow.>
I would prefer not to use the term 'sacked,' but yes, the attack went off flawlessly. We removed Taurajo from the equation, confiscated its arms, and destroyed its smithing facilities. The assault gave our forces considerable breathing room and knocked the enemy off balance.
Nonetheless, during the assault, I instructed my men to leave a gap open in our lines...
Gossip: Why did you do that?
Taurajo had a significant civilian population. I wanted to ensure that they could escape the fighting, and many did, finding refuge in the north.
There are some, even in Alliance High Command, who argued that I let an opportunity slip away. That I should've taken hostages. But I don't see the value in those sort of terror-tactics.
Hear me out, <name>: I want this war to end someday. It won't ever stop if we butcher or imprison civilians.
I just pray that there are those on the other side who see things as I do.
Post by
Adamsm
Hey Patty, that hacker left something in this thread, they edited one of your posts and put in a vulgar pic, may want to delete it.
Post by
Monday
Hey Patty, that hacker left something in this thread, they edited one of your posts and put in a vulgar pic, may want to delete it.
I was just wondering about that. It's reported, however, so the mods might get it if Patty doesn't see it.
Post by
4dehorde
I can keep saying I am being objective. Just like the Alliance had their reasons for attacking Taurajo, the Forsaken had their reasons for using the blight. Try reading that again and say I always praise the Horde and condemn the Alliance. I am really beginning to question where you are coming from in all this.
However, you call Taurajo a massacre, yet don't accept that Southshore or the Sludge Fields were also massacres.
Because unlike Taurajo, where the Aliance soldiers struck at anyone they saw, and left nearly a hundred (85-90% of the population) dead,
107.5% of statistics are made up on the spot.
What is your name, <class>? <name>?
Welcome to the Barrens. You are standing at the vanguard of our most important operations on this continent. I would be honored if you were to lend us your strength.
Gossip: Tell me what happened at Taurajo.
Ah yes, our assault on the Horde town of Taurajo. I struggled with the implications of the decision.
Taurajo was admittedly what you might call a 'soft target,' primarily a hunters' camp. Still, it had been used to recruit, equip, and train Horde infantry for many years.
When our scouts reported that Taurajo's most dangerous units were out on the hunt, we had to act quickly.
Gossip: We sacked the town?
<Hawthorne wrinkles his brow.>
I would prefer not to use the term 'sacked,' but yes, the attack went off flawlessly. We removed Taurajo from the equation, confiscated its arms, and destroyed its smithing facilities. The assault gave our forces considerable breathing room and knocked the enemy off balance.
Nonetheless, during the assault, I instructed my men to leave a gap open in our lines...
Gossip: Why did you do that?
Taurajo had a significant civilian population. I wanted to ensure that they could escape the fighting, and many did, finding refuge in the north.
There are some, even in Alliance High Command, who argued that I let an opportunity slip away. That I should've taken hostages. But I don't see the value in those sort of terror-tactics.
Hear me out, <name>: I want this war to end someday. It won't ever stop if we butcher or imprison civilians.
I just pray that there are those on the other side who see things as I do.
If you are going to claim I actually made something up, you are going to have to provide some proof. It is fact. Over a hundred people called Taurajo home, and since only a little over a dozen survived, yes, most were killed the massacre conducted without the general's knowledge. He didn't even know about his troops' conduct, so his words mean nothing.
But sure. If it is okay to say what was proven is made up, I can say the Forsaken never used the blight. I can also say nothing happened at Thal'darah. Come to think of it, the Lich King never started the Scourge War.
Seriously. All I wanted was a civil discussion. Is that too much to ask?
Post by
Monday
If you are going to claim I actually made something up, you are going to have to provide some proof. It is fact. Over a hundred people called Taurajo home, and since only a little over a dozen survived, yes, most were killed the massacre conducted without the general's knowledge. He didn't even know about his troops' conduct, so his words mean nothing.
Source for only a dozen surviving?
Post by
Adamsm
You are also forgetting where the civilians who fled ran into the Quillboar as well.
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