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Total Biscuit Quits WoW
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Post by
lonewarrior
Funny that people are calling me elitist..I am by definition the quintessential casual player. I play the game well but at my pace.I don't dwell in the world of the elitist players. Funny though how some like to use that term yet the same bunch go to Elitistjerks type website for reference. I guess when elitist provide us with spreed sheets like Rawr... oh well their ok then.
I see the game beyond the end of my nose. which unfortunately like TB is a diminishing breed.
Another thing...you guys seem ok with the current level..but what about the next player who come along and demands even easier contents. Where does it end ?As for the numbers that killed Illidan...so!. Like any competition, only the best rise to the top.
But this isn't a competition.
I don't raid so that I can say that I beat the other 11 million players in the game. I raid for fun and to enjoy the fights.
But it is a competition. You with a team of players are trying to kill a boss before he kills you. Want to define it a challenge instead be my guest. "Fun and enjoyment" How do you define that for yourself? I'm curious. I won't assume an answer, I'll wait if you decide to answer it.
Some people aren't good at PvP, should they be locked out entirely? How about 5-mans? At what point are you "good enough" to raid? 3/12? 11/12? 2/12HM? How many wipes does it take to make you "bad"? What makes you qualified to determine who gets to experience what content? What makes you qualified instead? Being a GM of a casual guild for years I have insight into the minds of a large body of players. I can tell you that everything Blizz has done from mid-wrath has been detrimental to the casual player/guild. They instead created a casual pugger. Where is my evidence. Cata LFD....where on earth did all these horrible players come from. You want them to set the standards/difficulties for this game. Cheers to you then....this ought to be fun to watch.
Post by
xaratherus
But it is a
competition
. You with a team of players are trying to kill a boss before he kills you. Want to define it a challenge instead be my guest. "Fun and enjoyment" How do you define that for yourself? I'm curious. I won't assume an answer, I'll wait if you decide to answer it.
A competition is defined as 'an event or contest in which people compete'. When I fight a raid boss, I'm confronting a challenge; I'm not competing against another person. If I'm in PvP then I would be competing. The raid boss is a challenge - but not a competition. The only way it would be a competition is if I somehow were comparing myself to other people; since I'm not, it's not.
As for fun and enjoyment? I enjoy seeing the new raid zones; I enjoy learning the strategies necessary to down the bosses; I find it fun to socialize with my guild, and to joke around on Vent; I enjoy the rush of downing a new boss.
And not a single bit of that will change after the nerf to the raids,
because I already did it
; I've already gotten the sense of accomplishment, and allowing others to experience the raid content (albeit at a different level) in no way lessens my sense of accomplishment, since I'm not competing against them. I'm not looking for bragging rights of any sort, so changing raid difficulty to let others get through doesn't alter what I've already gained; chances are I'll already be moving on to the next tier of new (and 'unnerfed') content.
I'm not comparing myself to the other guilds out there raiding, and thus my enjoyment is not based on some vague sense of, "Hah, I did it and you didn't!. Nor am I saying yours is either - but if it's not, I fail to see why the nerf should have any affect on how you view your accomplishments.
What makes you qualified instead? Being a GM of a casual guild for years I have insight into the minds of a large body of players. I can tell you that everything Blizz has done from mid-wrath has been detrimental to the casual player/guild
That's odd, since I've also been a GM or an officer in two large casual guilds (Windrunner\APEX and now Whisperwind/Forsaken Legion) since the beginning of Wrath, and the same opinion was not held by that large body of players.
So why is your experience more qualified than mine? The fact is that your 'large body' of players can be nothing
but
a a minute subset of the millions of players in the game. So all you can comment on is that tiny portion of the population with which you've interacted - and as I've just shown, that is by no means a universal sentiment.
Post by
Trishi
And not a single bit of that will change after the nerf to the raids, because I already did it; I've already gotten the sense of accomplishment, and allowing others to experience the raid content (albeit at a different level) in no way lessens my sense of accomplishment, since I'm not competing against them. I'm not looking for bragging rights of any sort, so changing raid difficulty to let others get through doesn't alter what I've already gained; chances are I'll already be moving on to the next tier of new (and 'unnerfed') content.
I like your point of view. I can't help but find it stupid that some keep complaining about the nerfs after they've done them already.
I can see the point if they did so before they completed the content. It would feel a bit like you couldn't accomplish it by yourself, and needed "help".
It's cruel to hate blizzard for nerfing content so more players gets access to it. That's the sort of self-centered egoism that is ruining WoW, not the nerfs themselves. I just don't see the point. You feel entitled to be among the select few that gets to see the end-game content? You want to be a special cookie? Then why are you playing PvE in the first place? PvP is the place for that. Blizzard have done plenty to give you strong competition, so why not take advantage of that?
So in short: "Getting your money's worth". If the content is so hard that you are among the only 5 % to have completed the end-game content, sure,
you
have gotten your money's worth, but the rest of us haven't. So why shouldn't we get our money's worth? I'd truly love to hear a good answer to that.
Post by
298296
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Lombax
This actually made me sad, he was one of the persons that made me like WoW and kept playing it. Then again it is hes choice, would have liked him to keep on playing. But but life goes on.
Post by
Ritmas
Quitting over it though, does seem a bit childish
"This company has not given me a service tailored enough to my requirements, and there are other competing companies who may be better able to do that. I don't want to seem childish, though, so I'll just keep spending my money with Company A even though I have no interest in using their services any more."
Yeah. Because that makes sense.
I
agree that he has all right and reasoning to quit because they aren't providing him the service he requires to satisfy him. But does that mean people should quit because their favorite character class is on the bottom of the ladder in DPS or HPS? By his reasoning they should...
He's quitting because content is being nerfed so a larger percentage of the wow population can experience it and he feels like this is making the community as a whole worse off. I don't recall him mentioning anything about not enjoying the content he was playing.
how can you compare the whole continent nerf and a single class nerf?
Post by
Interest
This actually made me sad, he was one of the persons that made me like WoW and kept playing it. Then again it is hes choice, would have liked him to keep on playing. But but life goes on.
Play because I play! =D
Post by
Rinkotsu
TLDR the whole thread
Who cares. The Azeroth Daily has been the only thing I don't watch by TB. His Cata beta updates is what brought me in, but his SHOUTcraft is what made me fall in love.
tl;dr Starcraft 2 is a better competitive game. I play WoW to socialize and waste time (I look at it is a time waster more than a waste of time). A lot of the time I'm just sitting in SW/Org and talking in guild chat. You don't do the same?
But Starcraft 2 man. That game I play to be good. I played some BW but I just played on BGH and Fastest maps. When WoL came out, I started off as a silver protoss player. Now I'm a diamond random and I'm still getting better, if not masters quality already. It was a rough road moving from silver to diamond, but that I'm proud of doing. Never really proud of anything from WoW.
Post by
MrSCH
If one person can do it then the majority can too.
Was MJ the only one who could hit a three pointer? Lots of NBA scorers can shoot a 3 pointer maybe not as prolific as MJ but they can still do it.
My point was simple enough to understand. You say that it's 'not a question of ability', and then the quote as above. I say to you; can the majority of people who play basketball, professionally or not, sink them? the answer is no. This doesn't mean they suck, this means that it's natural that people of varying abilities will have varying skills. Also, some people can't play basketball a lot because of time, but they don't mind shooting hoops with their son every now and again.
Now, does this mean that, because they can't sink the three pointers that they are the 'noobs'? That we should laugh at them, that it's their fault? no, of course not. We aren't going to penalise them, tell them they can't play BBall.
The analogy transfers well over to WoW, I feel.
Post by
Tribunal
The idea of nerfing the previous tier when a new tier is released isn't new, so I guess I just don't understand why he kept playing in all the previous instances and stopped now?
I'll admit I only watched most of the video, so maybe he mentioned it and I missed it.
Also, heroics being the only "relevant" part of the older tier is again, not really new. People did Heroic Uld and regular ToC, and then did Heroic ToC and regular ICC, etc.
Some even did Heroic Uld, Heroic ToC, and Heroic ICC (goooo mounts!). Sure, there was some steamrolling, but that's going to happen, especially 2 tiers out of date.
Heroic BoT/TotFW/BWD will still give valor, as well as achievements and mounts, etc. Guilds will use them to supplement Firelands in a lot of cases. That's been the model for an entire expansion.
/shrug. I see his points somewhat, I guess I'm just mostly confused as to why they're suddenly worth quitting over when it's been that way for a while.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
KaptainKrunk
Good riddance.
Post by
277780
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Interest
He brings up valid points. He believes Blizzard is taking WoW in the wrong direction and therefore is quitting. I'm debating whether to quit or not.Doesn't help that Abyssal Maw isn't coming. Blizzard better wake up or their Q2 report will be worse than their Q1.
Also I don't get how he is a joke when he is playing games for a living and doing well. That's an awesome job.
Heh. Indeed.
I would love to try to do that someday...
Post by
reddwarf
He's entitled to his opinion, but having listened to his podcast for a while I think that his view of how the game "should" be is what is wrong. He gets very ranty as far as his views of the "proper game" being overly difficult and challenging, when the majority of average people want it to be a fair challenge but not especially challenging, so it can be done in a timely fashion. Hell I just saw a news article today on Yahoo saying that WoW might be "in trouble" because of the number of cancellations. Before I took my hiatus from the game I saw a lot of posts from average, competent people (not entitled people) who were leaving the game because they didn't get the fun aspect out of the game, they can't PuG with the people they used to in Wrath, and overall the game felt a lot less accessible and less fun than Wrath. I know personally I felt I had much more fun in Wrath than I ever did in Cata; Cata felt way too much of a grind (grindier than normal) and people had the idea that if you weren't at X level in short order, it meant you were a terrible player and SHOULDN'T ever get past it.
So... I'll miss him but hey, as he even says if he's not happy with the game, why keep subscribing? It's his money, and his choice.
Post by
Monday
I don't see whats so "elitist" about not wanting content nerfed so anyone can stroll in and do it.
It's not that. From the sound of his post and his previous experiences, it seems that he only wants "the best" to be able to do them.
There's no problem once-so-ever in people not being able to do something. After all, isn't the whole point of end-game content to get better gear / skills to be able to clear harder content?
The point of end game content is to do end game content.
and yes, the whole "I did it, you can too" is a valid argument in context of WoW. If a bunch of guilds can clear a boss but a random pug can't, well that just means that pug was bad then doesn't it?
No, it means that the PuG doesn't have the communication abilities of a guild, and it doesn't have the degree of familiarity that guild members achieve when playing over a long amount of time. I, for myself, know that I could accurately predict what my guildies were going to do 90% of the time (number. Most of the time) after playing with them for several months.
Besides that, people who rofl their way through easy content are going to expect to be able to do the same in later content, which will see that content nerfed as well which will lead to the whole challenge of the game, which would be the majority of fun in raids, lost.
It means they'll be stuck ;)
Personally, I don't get why MMO players have this idea that "I HAVE to be able to do anything and everything!" without effort at that. I know it's not just because they pay a subscription because they do it with Free-To-Play games as well. If you can't ding 85 and waltz into Firelands and get loot, that's the way it should be and content shouldn't be nerfed because of it.
Meh. I haven't played FTP MMOs for a long time, but mostly it just seems to be retail MMOs that do that. Why do I want to be able to see all the content? Because I'm paying $180 a year to play the game. I could buy a normal game for $50 and see everything on it. However, I could play a non-MMO for as long or short as I want, whereas if you want to get anywhere in an MMO with the system you and lonewarrior want, you have to spend a lot of time.
Believe it or not, people will learn how to play / deal with fights if they don't nerf the content and just let them keep ramming their heads into the wall. They'll either learn to gear up and how to do the fights or fail. As they should.
I am aware of this. It would just take many months and lots of frustration, leading to people leaving and ultimately affecting Blizzard's bottom line.
Post by
lonewarrior
But it is a
competition
. You with a team of players are trying to kill a boss before he kills you. Want to define it a challenge instead be my guest. "Fun and enjoyment" How do you define that for yourself? I'm curious. I won't assume an answer, I'll wait if you decide to answer it.
As for fun and enjoyment? I enjoy seeing the new raid zones; I enjoy learning the strategies necessary to down the bosses; I find it fun to socialize with my guild, and to joke around on Vent; I enjoy the rush of downing a new boss.
And not a single bit of that will change after the nerf to the raids,
because I already did it
; I've already gotten the sense of accomplishment, and allowing others to experience the raid content (albeit at a different level) in no way lessens my sense of accomplishment, since I'm not competing against them. I'm not looking for bragging rights of any sort, so changing raid difficulty to let others get through doesn't alter what I've already gained; chances are I'll already be moving on to the next tier of new (and 'unnerfed') content.
I'm not comparing myself to the other guilds out there raiding, and thus my enjoyment is not based on some vague sense of, "Hah, I did it and you didn't!. Nor am I saying yours is either - but if it's not, I fail to see why the nerf should have any affect on how you view your accomplishments.
What makes you qualified instead? Being a GM of a casual guild for years I have insight into the minds of a large body of players. I can tell you that everything Blizz has done from mid-wrath has been detrimental to the casual player/guild
That's odd, since I've also been a GM or an officer in two large casual guilds (Windrunner\APEX and now Whisperwind/Forsaken Legion) since the beginning of Wrath, and the same opinion was not held by that large body of players.
So why is your experience more qualified than mine? The fact is that your 'large body' of players can be nothing
but
a a minute subset of the millions of players in the game. So all you can comment on is that tiny portion of the population with which you've interacted - and as I've just shown, that is by no means a universal sentiment.
Your idea of how this game brings you enjoyment is no different then mine. The difference is in how you say "I" throughout your response. I try to envision the game beyond "I". Why would I do that? Remember the threads complaining about the horrid LFD runs people were getting stuck in. Go back to my post late summer 2010. I warned that the bad habits I was seeing in the heroic runs/raids were going to cause chaos if Cata was going to revert back to old style playing.
Well it happened didn't it. Didn't affect me directly, I had my guild to cushion me, but it still was a detriment to the game. I cared beyond "I". When are people going to realize making something easier is in essence forging bad players. Didn't the end of Wrath teach us anything. Do you think following the same route through Cata is going to result in something different.
another thing TB is also complaining about is where old contents is negated when new contents is release. This really hurts the casual raiding guild when it was first employed in wrath. People got so caught up in seeing current contents before it got negated, that players started jumping from guild to guild looking for the next sweet spot.
Does it really make sense to just completely void contents for the future players and current players who can't commit to a rigorous schedule. Can't Blizz find a better way for those players to experience the expansion in it's entirety without resorting to nerfs and welfare epics boost. Is taking a player who never raided and throwing him into end game contents instead of being weened by elder players through earlier raids really going to help to foster a larger pool of quality raiders?
I'm not comparing myself to the other guilds out there raiding
In essence you don't feel the need to measure your success against other players. But isn't this competitiveness exactly what Blizz is fostering from here on out. Isn't throwing everyone into the same raid pool without quantifying them just going to increase the competition for spots and make the chance for a successful raid less likely.
Look I'm all for players seeing contents, but there just has to be some level of ability/commitment if a person wants to see it all.
Earlier someone mention MJ in their post. Now don't we all wish we could shoot like him, isn't there a certain fascination for what he achieved. Doesn't every sport need someone like that. Now imagine if basketball decided they wanted everyone to be like Mike. They lowered the basket, shorten the 3 point and foul line..etc. Wouldn't that then diminish what Mike accomplished, wouldn't we lose something as a fan.
When I see some of those top guilds sporting top gear, I marvel at their achievement.
Am I ever going to commit that much of myself to reaching their level....probably not!. But I'm a fan of this game and the game needs it's loftiness otherwise what's the point. Might as well just make it a swift kick to the nuts and down goes the boss and everyone can have their contents.
Post by
Sweetscot
I don't see whats so "elitist" about not wanting content nerfed so anyone can stroll in and do it.
There's no problem once-so-ever in people not being able to do something. After all, isn't the whole point of end-game content to get better gear / skills to be able to clear harder content?
and yes, the whole "I did it, you can too" is a valid argument in context of WoW. If a bunch of guilds can clear a boss but a random pug can't, well that just means that pug was bad then doesn't it?
Besides that, people who rofl their way through easy content are going to expect to be able to do the same in later content, which will see that content nerfed as well which will lead to the whole challenge of the game, which would be the majority of fun in raids, lost.
Personally, I don't get why MMO players have this idea that "I HAVE to be able to do anything and everything!" without effort at that. I know it's not just because they pay a subscription because they do it with Free-To-Play games as well. If you can't ding 85 and waltz into Firelands and get loot, that's the way it should be and content shouldn't be nerfed because of it.
Believe it or not, people will learn how to play / deal with fights if they don't nerf the content and just let them keep ramming their heads into the wall. They'll either learn to gear up and how to do the fights or fail. As they should.
You don't see what is elitist about wanting to retain game content for the "elite"? /headscratch
HELLO?
A few things...
1) "Believe it or not, people will learn how to play / deal with fights if they don't nerf the content and just let them keep ramming their heads into the wall. " No, some players won't. Some players play at excessive latencies, some play with physical or mental handicaps, some just suck that much. They have however all contributed to the funding of the content...that doesn't mean that they get to do everything and certainly doesn't mean they'll be wanting in your raids....they should however get to see the content in a modified version after it's been consumed by the "elites".
2) If you've already beaten the content why the heck do you care if it gets nerfed? I see the same people ranting about old content nerfs telling people asking for the re-implementation of lvl 60 content that got retuned to "just suck it up"...you can't have it both ways...either outdated content is "useless" or it's not.
3) Old news is very old. Past tiers have always been nerfed after the fact, how is this an issue again?
4) I see the argument "but then they'll be wanting to bad up mah raids!" ...no, they won't, they'll be running the nerfed content a tier below you, nobody is going to force you into playing with the people that need the nerfs to be able to see the content.
5) "These people shouldn't have fun! They are so bad they should just quit!" Don't worry, plenty of them are quitting...let the joy of that wash over you right before the release schedule for new content doubles and every new ingame feature has an extra price tag attached then get back with me.
Post by
lonewarrior
As for the numbers that killed Illidan...so!. Like any competition, only the best rise to the top.
But this isn't a competition.
I don't raid so that I can say that I beat the other 11 million players in the game. I raid for fun and to enjoy the fights.
Blizzard spent hundreds - possibly thousands - of man-hours and a huge sum of money to create Black Temple. They didn't design it so that a small portion of the playerbase could feel like special snowflakes - they designed it to be played and enjoyed by the people who play the game.
I've mentioned this before but I'll say it again: A game designer who designs a game wherein the penultimate content of the game
has poorly designed the game
. This doesn't mean the content should not be challenging - but if it is
so
challenging that less than 5% of the people who play ever saw it while it was end game content, then the design is bad - plain and simple.
Aestu used to make a comparison with Super Mario Brothers. He seemed to think that Super Mario Brothers invalidated my argument based on the idea that very few people had beat it. Every single person that I know who played that game beat it - and most beat it on the 'harder mode' that would become available after you played through once. Was it challenging? Yes. But was it so challenging that only a handful of the people who played the game beat it? No - and that's one of the (many) things that made it a hugely successful game.
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/worldofwarcraftcataclysm/news.html?login=true&sid=6281081&mode=news
The number of people who saw end game contents was definitely a lot smaller in WoW earlier days through BC.
As someone mentioned only a small number of players got to kill Illidan. Yet as the link shows WoW base continued to grow. I Guess total end game consumption wasn't the bottom line for people choosing to play this game back then. So I guess any comment that says that raiding was to difficult back then doesn't gel with the numbers and sentiments of those customers. They didn't seem to mind.
Why is it that now with greater end game consumption do we see a drop off.
I hazard to guess that although there is easier end game accessibility the quality of play doing so has become so poor that people like TB and like minded players have had enough.
Post by
Sweetscot
I can only speak for myself here, but for me what BC had that cata severely lacks is optional non-gear-driven content. BC had several rep grinds that were mostly solo-able, didn't have time limitations, did not offer significant gear if any, and were FUN (again, all my opinion).
Admittedly some of these were not available at release of BC but were later patch additions, but I really don't see them adding anywhere near as much of this type of content...it honestly doesn't even seem to be on the radar anymore.
In bc I could do netherwing dailies, skyguard dailies, ioqd dailies, shat dailies, and/or hellfire dailies. I could grind mobs for repeatable rep hand-ins for at least 3 factions I can think of off the top of my head. I could also attempt group play if I wanted, and many of the dungeons offered further rep items for turn in as loot. Basically I could play in LOTS of different ways...now you do your dailies and then start your dungeon grind.
While tabards are awesome, to me it really stinks that there is now only 2 ways to grind rep with factions :/ I prefer many paths to exalted instead with more dynamic dailies, at least 1 grindable turn-in item, and dungeon grinding.
In BC there were world pvp objectives...they might not have gotten used much on many servers but there were options. Personally I still love the hellfire towers and halaa and I still snag the terrokar towers if I'm there when they're up. I'm not a huge pvper, far from it, but those random objectives that affect the zones they are in are an awesome optional fun feature.
In BC there was a starter raid, it was large, interesting, and taught players the skills they needed in that xpac. In wrath there was a starter raid, it was large, interesting to some, and taught players skills they needed in that xpac, In cata....not so much, hopefully the t11 raids will fill this purpose in t12 and beyond.
Basically the biggest difference that really messes with me the most is the clump effect in cata. Everyone is in one spot and yet are usually queued for other things so don't interact much...it's an odd effect in an mmo (imo).
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