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Undead Druids
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Post by
585087
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306612
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Post by
Bloodspeaker
I never found the idea of an undead druid that far of a reach. I mean the point of druidism is to be one with nature, and decay is part of that. Not the part that is normally used, but the returning to the earth is just as important as the growth of new life. As others have said, just make the models of the diseased animals for the forms and have them work with keeping life and death in balance by focusing more on the culling side of the spectrum instead of the regrowth side like the other druids.
Hi guys,
just started playing again and i thought this post deserved revisiting after reading SomeTool's comment. It seems like a really good take on the idea of the undead druid. One that actually ties in to the druid lore somehow too.
As far as my original idea went...that idea was that undead druids were really druids in the same way that tauren paladins aren't really paladins. Yes, tauren paladins use the light, but they don't so much use the
holy
light as the light of the sun. The lore for Tauren paladins is also very clear that they are druids of the sun, not paladins as such.
In a similar fashion my original idea was that the undead druids came up with potions or magics that allowed them to alter their own bodies or manipulate the flow of natural energy as an alternative to using the holy light, which is extremely painful for them to use. The undead are clearly able to manipulate natural energy, since they routinely play around with changing living creatures in all kinds of ways. I chose the creatures i did for their changes because i really can't see an undead willingly turning themselves into bears and such. At least ghouls, ghosts and such are still relatively humanoid after all.
I went with the idea for undead druids because, at the time, it seemed more likely that a race renowned for it's alchemy and willingness to use live test subjects would be more like to look for something like druidic powers. Shamanic power didn't seem to make much sense to me then in connection to the undead because there doesn't seem to be anything in their lore connecting to manipulating the elements, beyond a fairly casual use of electricity.
Post by
matheus314
You keep on saying that you would like to see a race becomming a class by
not being
that class at all...
A Druid, by lore, is someone who's in touch with Nature, not simply shapeshifting or alteration magics. Therefore, Undead won't be able to become druids, simply because they represent everything that's
against
Nature.
Post by
Monday
It kind of reminds me of the
Golgari Swarm
from Magic: the Gathering. They use Green and Black mana, which means that they use opposing magics of life and death (and, in fact, a lot of them are
zombie shamans/druids
). They work them together to show the circle of life: birth through death, then rebirth into undeath. They represent the type of nature that often is overlooked by druids and whatnot, such as spiders, fungi, insects, w/e.
IMO there's a possibility of undead druids. They won't be liked by the others, but with enough of an ideological bent, it's possible.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Makes more sense than Druids of the Flame.
Post by
Bloodspeaker
You keep on saying that you would like to see a race becomming a class by
not being
that class at all...
Except that Blizz already did this with tauren paladins. They use paladin class mechanics, but they are druids of the sun as far as their Lore is concerned. What i'm proposing here isn't really any different than that.
Also doesn't it make sense that the undead would try and find a source of healing that didn't cause them enormous pain every time it's used and might even, potentially, regenerate their bodies? I'm not saying they would stop being undead, just that nature magic is all about regrowth...and nobody needs that more than the Forsaken.
Now that i think about it i'm surprised Blizz didn't already try and explore this, potentially very interesting, story arc.
Post by
Adamsm
Except that Blizz already did this with tauren paladins. They use paladin class mechanics, but they are druids of the sun as far as their Lore is concerned. Um...not really; they use the Light just like the other Paladins, it just comes from a different source.
Also doesn't it make sense that the undead would try and find a source of healing that didn't cause them enormous pain every time it's used and might even, potentially, regenerate their bodies? They have one; the Cult of Forgotten Shadow uses shadow magic to help repair and stitch up the bodies to keep them functioning. Nature magic needs living tissue to work on, and necrotic tissue from the Undead wouldn't be very compatible.
Now that i think about it i'm surprised Blizz didn't already try and explore this, potentially very interesting, story arc.You may find it 'interesting' but as seen here in the thread, most others don't...and I'm betting Blizzard would agree.
Post by
Atik
Undead Druids have always been a kinda... eh idea to me. Undead Shamans I can see being a lot more interesting, imo.
Draenei Druids, on the other hand...
Post by
Monday
Um...not really; they use the Light just like the other Paladins, it just comes from a different source.
Do we have confirmation of this outside of game mechanics? As you often say:
Mechanics != lore
Post by
Adamsm
Um...not really; they use the Light just like the other Paladins, it just comes from a different source.
Do we have confirmation of this outside of game mechanics? As you often say:
Mechanics != lore
Power source of the Sunwalker Paladins and Priests
Tauren priests (known as Seers), and paladins (known as Sunwalkers) aim to revere the light of hope that the Earth Mother shines upon the world, through the use of An’she’s power. Tahu Sagewind implies that such a focus on An'she, as opposed to the power of Mu’sha used by druids and night elves, could achieve the balance of the Earth Mother, granting the tauren another blessing from her.
In Cataclysm, the power of An’she can appear either as red flames emerging from a while-hot source or as golden magic similar to other divine magic. Tauren seem to use the terms “Sun”, “Light” or both as synonyms for An’she.
3. ^ World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King. Aponi Brightmane, in conversation with Tahu Sagewind: “There's a phrase... "It's always darkest before the dawn." The dawn will come, though, Tahu. The sun will rise. The balance will shift back to where it should be.”. Aponi Brightmane smiles and gestures to the north. “Even on the glacier itself, the sun manages to peek through the gloom. I have hope, Tahu. I think we'll make it through this, no matter how dire it looks.”
4. ^ The Sunwalker Kodo’s eyes and war-drums noticeably emit red and orange flame, while in contrast the saddle emits faint waves of golden light.
The Seers and the Sunwalkers
, which is where point three came from in Wrath and point 7 is from Cataclysm.
7.
Hallowed Note
"The way of the priest is a new one for our people, but it draws on the ancient traditions of our seers. In your lessons, you will learn the wisdom of the Earthmother as illuminated by the Light."
Just as Night Elf priestess/priest draw their might from Elune, the Tauren's get theirs from An'she, and both of those fall under Divine magic, same as the Light itself. They are not just 'Sun druids' as the OP states.
Post by
Monday
But why are they not "sun druids?" They were specifically made as a counter to the night elven druids to ensure that balance is maintained between sun and moon. That's a very druidic idea. The structure of them also implies that they are a semi-druidic order that happen to use the Light.
Post by
Bloodspeaker
Except that Blizz already did this with tauren paladins. They use paladin class mechanics, but they are druids of the sun as far as their Lore is concerned. Um...not really; they use the Light just like the other Paladins, it just comes from a different source.
Yeah...i don't actually dispute that they use the light. That doesn't actually change that their lore says they see themselves as druids who are using the powers of an'she (the sun) in an attempt to balance out the night elves moon-centric druidic teachings. It isn't really particularly relevant to the point you've quoted what powers they use or where they come from.
Also doesn't it make sense that the undead would try and find a source of healing that didn't cause them enormous pain every time it's used and might even, potentially, regenerate their bodies? They have one; the Cult of Forgotten Shadow uses shadow magic to help repair and stitch up the bodies to keep them functioning. Nature magic needs living tissue to work on, and necrotic tissue from the Undead wouldn't be very compatible.
Is there anything saying that the Cult of Forgotten Shadow doesn't use light magic (which is very very painful to most undead, even if it isn't to the priests themselves). Or are they really able to do all the healing of a priest without touching the light? Because, unless they actually don't use the light at all, it would still make sense for the undead to be looking for a source of healing that didn't cause enormous pain every time it's used on them. Due to their abilities with chemicals and their general fascination with what makes life tick, something like druid powers seems like a more natural fit for the undead.
I'll admit the living tissue thing is a bit of a problem, but nature is able to make life come from dead things and does in fact do this all the time.
Post by
Bloodspeaker
Undead Shamans I can see being a lot more interesting, imo.
Undead Shamans? how do you see that working? Something like goblins using technology to mimic shaman effects? Or maybe they find a way to summon and manipulate the elements more like a warlock does with demons?
Maybe you should start this as a separate thread. I'd be more than happy to see how the idea develops...
Post by
Adamsm
That doesn't actually change that their lore says they see themselves as druids who are using the powers of an'she (the sun) in an attempt to balance out the night elves moon-centric druidic teachings.Could you please provide a quote to that? Since after looking over the An'she page and the Sunwalker one, well there is the comment in regards to Mu'sha and the druids, it doesn't state that they are 'Sun druids' especially after reading over the Seer section. The Walkers are their own distinct group, just as paladins differ from the standard priest.
Is there anything saying that the Cult of Forgotten Shadow doesn't use light magic (which is very very painful to most undead, even if it isn't to the priests themselves). Or are they really able to do all the healing of a priest without touching the light? Because, unless they actually don't use the light at all, it would still make sense for the undead to be looking for a source of healing that didn't cause enormous pain every time it's used on them. The Cult uses Shadow magic and energies to repair damaged portions of the Forsaken; they are the doctors and the healers for the Forsaken group. They use no Light at all, since it wouldn't just hurt the patient but the healer as well(fun fact, every member of the Cult of Forgotten Shadow are Forsaken).
Due to their abilities with chemicals and their general fascination with what makes life tick, something like druid powers seems like a more natural fit for the undead.Except for the whole druidic magic being the complete antithesis of necromancy of course....
I'll admit the living tissue thing is a bit of a problem, but nature is able to make life come from dead things and does in fact do this all the time.Yes...and that life is from the corpses decomposing; it does not 'heal' the dead or restore it to life. Using nature on an Undead, outside of game mechanics, seems like it wouldn't work at all since there is no life there for the natural healing abilities to work on.
Post by
Bloodspeaker
I believe Blizzard elaborated on undead priests using holy magic by the way of saying that it hurts them (us) but they overcome the pain through mental discipline.
Right, found the link, it's explained by Bornakk:
Q: Can you please explain how "light" works? The lore states that undead are physically incapable of using the light, much like the Broken, but then we have Forsaken players casting healing spells, and Sir Zeliek in Naxxramas using pseudo-paladin abilities.
A: Without spoiling too much, we can tell you that wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith in one's own ability to do it. That's why there are evil paladins (for example, the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne). For the undead (and Forsaken), this requires such a great deal of willpower that it is exceedingly rare, especially since it is self-destructive. When undead channel the Light, it feels (to them) as if their entire bodies are being consumed in righteous fire. Forsaken healed by the Light (whether the healer is Forsaken or not) are effectively cauterized by the effect: sure, the wound is healed, but the healing effect is cripplingly painful. Thus, Forsaken priests are beings of unwavering willpower; Forsaken (and death knight) tanks suffer nobly when they have priest and paladin healers in the group; and Sir Zeliek REALLY hates himself.
Post by
Bloodspeaker
Ok, i'll concede that the Sunwalkers were a bad example coupled with a misunderstanding on my part. I didn't distinguish between the druidic content of the conversation that led to the Sunwalkers being born and them not actually having to be druids. I just assumed the two went hand in hand.
However, while Forsaken priests may be healing with the shadow (don't see anything about this on the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow page on wowwiki) it still seems very much in keeping with the undeads character as a race to try and work out how other powers work and exploit them towards their own ends. It also seems to me that quite alot of a druids power might be something the undead could learn to bottle or modify themselves to mimic.
I stand by my conviction that undead druids aren't as stupid an idea as they first seemed and that, even if blizz ultimately concluded that that it couldn't happen, it might still make for a very interesting quest line or two. I can easily see an undead...well lets call them scientists...wondering what would happen if they combined the Plague with the natural powers of a druid. That could easily lead to a player being asked to go and capture an alliance druid for study...
This topic could even be used to explore how the other horde races feel about the Forsaken. Obviously they are horrified by them, but beyond that do they feel sympathy? I could almost imagine a tauren druid coming to the Forsaken and offering to try and teach about druidism in the hope that it might regenerate them.
Post by
Adamsm
Obviously they are horrified by them, but beyond that do they feel sympathy? I could almost imagine a tauren druid coming to the Forsaken and offering to try and teach about druidism in the hope that it might regenerate them.Would never happen; they may feel sympathy but the power of the necromancy doesn't work with nature in that regards.
Sorry, but I still find the idea as one that will never work because of what the Forsaken are and what druids are.
Post by
matheus314
I just want to bite the bullet here and say:
Tauren paladins
worship
the Sun Goddess An'she. That is different from channeling their energy from the Sun (something a druid would do). Instead they use the power of the "Light", a religious concept, different to the light that would come from the sun, the fire or etc...
At the core, what differentiates a Druid from a Paladin is that Paladins are faithful followers, devouted to a specific religion (The Light), while Druids are much more focused on the balance between the elements in a organic way (therefore, making them different from the Shamans).
Post by
oneforthemoney
I just want to bite the bullet here and say:
Tauren paladins
worship
the Sun Goddess An'she. That is different from channeling their energy from the Sun (something a druid would do). Instead they use the power of the "Light", a religious concept, different to the light that would come from the sun, the fire or etc...
At the core, what differentiates a Druid from a Paladin is that Paladins are faithful followers, devouted to a specific religion (The Light), while Druids are much more focused on the balance between the elements in a organic way (therefore, making them different from the Shamans).
This is a good explanation. It's why the night elves have a priesthood as well as druids, rather than both being mashed together.
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